Sketchy Doctrine

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Van, May 20, 2013.

  1. Van

    Van
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    Did the Fall cause us to be conceived in a sinful condition, separated from God? My answer is yes. Had we sinned or done anything good or bad? My answer is no. Thus Adam's sin was not imputed to us. But the consequence of his sin, separation from God and corruption did result in our sinful condition at conception.

    Were our sins and our sinful condition washed away by Christ's one sacrifice on the Cross? No. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's one sacrifice on the cross have their sins washed away. God must credit our faith as righteousness, and then place us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, in order to receive the washing of regeneration.

    Bottom line, the nice sounding doctrine avoids the sequence given in scripture for salvation.
     
  2. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  3. Winman

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    Well, that is not what the scriptures say. The scriptures say God has made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions.

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    The word "they" is plural and points back to the word "man" showing this verse is speaking of ALL men, not just Adam.

    So we are not conceived in a sinful condition as you believe, we are conceived in an UPRIGHT condition.

    We are not separated from God either, Jesus shows three times in Luke 15 that sinners are not originally lost.

    Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    The shepherd originally had 100 sheep, not ZERO as your belief would conclude. One sheep BECAME lost, but he was not originally lost.

    Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    The woman originally had 10 pieces of silver, not ZERO as would be the case if Original Sin is true. One piece later BECAME lost.

    Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

    Jesus said the father originally HAD TWO SONS. The prodigal son was not born lost and separated from his father as you falsely teach.

    You got this correct, Romans 9:11 shows babies have not done any evil and are not sinners.

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    Because of Adam's sin, all men were barred from the tree of life and thus physically die, but men spiritually die when they come to know right from wrong and personally sin.

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    The Jews did not believe a person became accountable for sin until a certain age and level of maturity. The words Bar Mitzvah (men) and Bat Mitzvah (women) mean "son of the commandments" or "daughter of the commandments" meaning a child has become an agent who is subject to the law.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

    This is exactly what Paul is describing in Romans 7. When he came to know the law, he believed the law would lead him to life, but sin taking occasion by the law convicted him as a sinner and he spiritually died.

    If we are born dead in sin as you falsely teach, then Paul could never say he was ALIVE, but that is exactly what Paul taught.

    All men's sins were paid for by Jesus when he shed his blood on the cross, but we do not receive this payment unless we believe on Jesus as God has commanded. All men who place even the smallest amount of faith in Jesus (as a mustard seed) will be saved, Jesus will not cast out any person who comes to him in faith under any circumstance.

    Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Jesus will not cast out some who come in faith as you imply over and over again.
     
  4. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: <-----------that's one more than quant gave van......heheheheee
     
  5. Van

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    Folks, pay no attention to Winman, he simply ignores that by the transgression of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. Not made predisposed to sin in the future, but sinners. Conceived in iniquity. People who deny God's word are not a well to drink from. His post is mostly a copy and paste of oft refuted assertions, scripture is clear.

    Ecclesiastes 7:29 supports that Adam was made upright, but the fall occurred and then they, all mankind, seek out schemes. We are conceived in a fallen condition, by nature children of wrath, not by nature upright children. Winman simply ignores what scripture says and rewrites it. None of the Luke references even address the fall. When did mankind become lost? When did Adam get kicked out of the garden and separated from the tree of life. LOL
     
    #5 Van, May 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2013
  6. Van

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    Leaving the ramblings of our errant brothers behind, note that the application of the propitiation is assumed, rather than received by God accepting our faith in Christ during our lifetime. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    Pretty simple!

    God saw Adam as being the head of all humans to come after Him, as all were in His seed so to speak, and when he failed to obey God, the punishment/judgement of God was passed unto ALL of us, so to God, we are all guilty as adam was, and are born sinners...

    Jesus came as second adam, tested and found acceptable, and he became head over those saved, so ALL in Him now saved!
     
  8. Winman

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    It is you that misinterprets Romans 5;

    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Tell me Van, does the word "many" here mean many, or does it mean all? Either way you paint yourself into a corner. If many means all, then your view would teach universalism. If many means simply many, then not all men are made sinners. You are stuck.

    If on the other hand a person understands Romans 5 to teach that men are made sinners when they imitate Adam, then many is fine as is. And if men are made righteous when they imitate Jesus and trust on God to save them, then many is fine as is.

    That will go right over your head.

    You must apply the same conditions to each half of the verses in Romans 5:12-19; You cannot unconditionally impute Adam's sin to all men, and conditionally impute righteousness to men who believe on Jesus. That is not the form of argument Paul is using.

    Paul is saying those men who conditionally sin as Adam sinned come under the condemnation, death, and judgment that Adam introduced into the world, and those who conditionally believe as Jesus did come under the righteousness that Jesus introduced.

    If you do not apply the same conditions to both sides of each verse, then you will end up with universalism. That is the logical end of your error whether you are able to figure it out or not.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    God imputed Adam sin to all men, and he imputs jesus rightousness to all saved by/in Him!
     
  10. Winman

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    God said the son shall not BEAR the iniquity of his father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of his son, but each man shall die for his own sin.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    What part of this scripture do you not understand?

    Now show me scripture that says Adam's sin is imputed to all men.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    Are we all sinners or not?!

    THAT why was jesus came Virgin Born, for if conceived naturally, would have been a sinner, receiving in Himself sin nature from adam!
     
  12. Winman

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    Why do you ask ridiculous questions?

    I asked you to provide scripture that says Adam's sin was imputed to all men. You constantly say that, so prove it from scripture.

    I have showed scripture where God says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, you have showed NOTHING.

    If you want folks to believe you, show scripture that supports your position. Otherwise you are ALL TALK.
     
  13. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:<------again, that's one more than quant gave van.......hehehehee
     
  14. convicted1

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    For the umpteenth time, no He didn't. Death was passed upon all flesh via Adam, and not his sins.......
     
  15. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:<--------ahem....ditto!!
     
  16. Winman

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    Exactly. Paul himself refutes Original Sin in both Romans 7 and Romans 9.

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
    11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

    If Adam's sin is imputed to all men, then all men would indeed be born dead in sin, but Paul tells us he was ALIVE without the law once. He had just written that he would have not known lust unless the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet", so we know Paul is speaking of when he first learned the law as a young man.

    Paul refutes Original Sin and tells us he was spiritually alive, but when he learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died. He could not possibly be saying he physically died.

    Paul also refutes Original Sin in Romans 9;

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

    If all men sinned in Adam in Romans 5:12 as many falsely teach, then Paul could not say that Jacob and Esau had done no evil in Romans 9:11. Those who teach OS teach that we all participated in Adam's sin, being in his loins. Paul refutes this and tells us they had committed no sins while they were alive in their mother's womb.

    So, OS is refuted by Paul himself.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    ALl except for jesus were born as sinners, with a sin nature in them!

    And the SAME paul stated that just as through the sins of Adam, death passed to ALL, so in the second Adam, jesus obedience, spiritual/eternal life passed to all who received Him!

    All spiirtual dead in adam, ONLY jesus was the exception, and all in him have spiritual life!
     
    #17 Yeshua1, May 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013
  18. Winman

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    You keep saying this, but you NEVER show scripture that says this.

    Paul said DEATH passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. Paul did not say Adam's SIN, or any man's sin passed upon another man. I showed Ezekiel 18:20 where God himself says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. Game over.

    You seem to believe if you parrot Reformed doctrine over and over again, that somehow this makes it true, yet you fail to ever show scripture that supports your view.

    Any mindless person can repeat what they have been told, show scripture that says all men are born dead in Adam, show scripture that shows God imputes Adam's sin to all men.

    If you can't prove your position from scripture, then maybe you need to remain quiet. You must believe that people are extremely stupid to believe you without evidence or proof.
     
    #18 Winman, May 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013
  19. Yeshua1

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    NONE were perfect in the OT, NONE were saved by theuir own rightousnes...

    ALL have sinned except for jesus, as ALL others are sinners by birth and choice!

    jesus would have had a sinners nature as to His humanity, that is why he HAD to bypass that and be Virgin, conceived by the HS Himself!
     
  20. Winman

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    Can't show any scripture that supports your position can you?

    I never denied that all men sin and I have never said that any man can merit salvation. Why do you even mention these things, unless you attempt to smear me?

    Men are sinners by choice, but you have not shown any scripture that says men are born sinners, when I showed scripture that said Esau and Jacob had done no evil (Rom 9:11). Game over again.

    Jesus was born of a virgin as a SIGN (Isa 7:14). There is absolutely ZERO scripture to support your superstition that Jesus had to be born of a virgin to escape a sin nature. In fact, scripture tells us that Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

    Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Scripture also tells us that Jesus took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham, not Adam. So if the descendants of Abraham were born with a sin nature, then Jesus would have had a sin nature as well.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Again, the word of God says Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham, so if Abraham's descendants were born with a sin nature, you would have to conclude Jesus was also born with a sin nature.

    The scripture says Jesus was made like unto his brethren the Jews in ALL THINGS. So if they were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus.

    I refuse to believe this, the scriptures say Jesus was without sin. Therefore, men cannot be born with a sin nature, although all men become sinners when they knowingly and willingly choose to sin of their own free will AFTER they are born.

    So, once again I have presented scripture that refutes your error, while you have not shown one word of scripture to support your views.
     
    #20 Winman, May 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013

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