slavery and kidnapping

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Pete Richert, Sep 2, 2003.

  1. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    This one is for Kent Witcher,

    People were kidnapped from their families in Africa and sold into slavery. I think it matters zero whether fellow Africas did the selling or not, this was wrong.

    Now fast forward to America where these SAME kidnapped people were sold. The Bible makes some statements of slavery and I agree with them.

    1) Slaves should be submissive to their masters.
    2) Masters should treat their slaves fairly.

    So, for the sake of this example, we can assume these people accepted that they were kidnapped from their families and seperated from them, forced to work, and decided to work as hard as they could for their master. This may be the right thing to do. And indeed, their masters, finding themselves the owners of slaves, should treat them fairly.

    But is that it? It doesn't occur to them whatsoever that they should not have been kidnapped in the first place!!!! A christian brother should one up that treating them fairly and SEND THEM HOME! I would hope a Christian brother would send me home after buying me from the slave trade after I was kidnapped.

    Does it matter if they were born in the US. IF your daugther was kidnapped and sold into slavery in the Sudan, would that be wrong, but her child born in the Sudan be lawfully a slave. How about her grandchild.

    Let me invision a story as I see it. My daughter is kidnapped and sold in slavery in the Sudan (where it is legal mind you). Now she is a slave. I hope two things happen. She works hard (if anything to keep from a beeting) and I think it will go better for her. And I definitly hope the slave owner is treating her fairly.

    And what will I do? I will go get a gun. I will get lots of guns (most fundies on this board should already own their own but I happen not to). And then I will spend every last penny of any money I have and hire some mercenaries and some ex-Amry Rangers and a few navy seals. And if I can not get a passport into the Sudan I will parachute in. And I will search night and day and night and day and I will not rest one evening, not one hour until either my daugther is with me or I am DEAD! And I can not even imagine the HORROR I would be in if I finnally caught up with my daughter, only to find she was being owned by a Christian brother. If I could only truly believe for one second this man thought it his Biblical privilage to keep my daughter who was kidnapped from a foreign land, then I may try to reason. I would say, "I am going to go get my daughter and take her home." And if he did ANYTHING to try to stop me, I would shoot him. I don't know if I am allowed to say that on the BB. Maybe I would just hit him in the leg first. If a moderator wishes to edit this post, please only edit that part as I really wish to have myself heard here. Perhaps my relationship with my daughter is different then others. But not a single thing in my entire life would stand as normal until I had her again.
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    The Scripture has been shown earlier that "enslavers" is specifically prohibited (I Timothy 1:10) The word for enslavers is "andrapodistes," which more accurately means "one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery, as well as one who steals slaves and sells them" according to Thayer's. This, to me, is the clearest indication that pre-civil war slavery was an abomination to God. The Black slaves would fall under this category, as they were either free before being sold into slavery or were slaves over in Africa before being bought and shipped over here.

    Therefore, can we not conclude that this type of slavery is much different from the kind of slavery that, say, Onesimus was subject to? Does it therefore follow that slaves who were once free and were stolen into slavery were not committing a sin by wanting and attempting to return to that freedom which was once theirs?
     
  3. Karen

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  4. Kent Witcher

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    People were kidnapped from their families in Africa and sold into slavery. I think it matters zero whether fellow Africas did the selling or not, this was wrong.

    This is just your opinion. The Africans had legal right to capture, enslave, sell their captives. So who are you to say that it was wrong? I think that abortion is wrong. I'll tell anyone who'll listen that it's wrong but the gov't says it's legal so it goes on and I have to abide with it and pray that God would bring change in men's hearts.

    IF your daugther was kidnapped and sold into slavery in the Sudan, would that be wrong, but her child born in the Sudan be lawfully a slave. How about her grandchild.

    Yes it would be wrong for here it would be considered kidnapping and yes I'd shoot, bite, poke to death with a straight pin anyone who dare lay a hand on my daugter. I'm biblically commanded to protect my family against such.

    But if my gov't said that it was legal then I would just have to deal with it and pray that my daughter would be faithful to God and that I'd see her in glory.

    "Fear not those that kill the body but rather he who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell"

    A christian brother should one up that treating them fairly and SEND THEM HOME! I would hope a Christian brother would send me home after buying me from the slave trade after I was kidnapped.

    You make a false assumptiont that to be enslaved is unjust. It may be unfair in our eyes but like God told Job, Just who do you think you are?
     
  5. Kiffin

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    Sending them home would have probably got them executed or killed considering the brutal way of African tribal warfare. In God's providence however just as Joseph benefited from his slavery so the descendants of slaves have ultimately benefited in having a better lifestyle than their fellow Africans in Africa whose ancestors sold them into slavery.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    They had the legal right, but not the Biblical right. They were "enslavers" which is an abomination.

    So it's okay to murder someone as long as you're protecting your family? Where is that in Scripture?

    it's not a false assumption - it's a Biblical one. It is an ungodly thing to trade, sell, or buy slaves who were once free men. (I Tim. 1:10)
     
  7. Pete Richert

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    Abortion is wrong whether it is legal or not. Kidnapping and enslaving are wrong whether it is legal or not. Sodomy is wrong whether it is legal or not. Pornoghaphy is wrong whether it is legal or not. Sex outside of marriage is wrong whether it is legal or not. I determine what is right from the Bible and not what the secular govenment says is wrong. Do you serious think it is just my "opinion" that kidnapping and enslaving is wrong?

    Well I'm glad you at least care about your own family. Now all you need is to start careing about you neighbors family and protect them, even if your neighbore lives in Africa.

    "Jesus, who is my neightbor?"

    "The guy next door. But if someone kidnaps and enslaves someone in a far off land then brings them to you, go ahead and buy them and continue to surpress that freedom. They are not your neighbor"???

    I'm sorry about your daughter. I could care less what the Sudan's govenment thinks is lawful, I wouldn't rest one night until I had her back or I was dead.

    NOOOO, you just made the false assumption that the Bible isn't true. That might be one to remedy.

    1 Timothy 1:9-10
    realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderer and immoral men and homosexuals and KIDNAPPERS (NRSV: Slave Traders) and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
     
  8. Kent Witcher

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    Kidnapping yes wrong, enslaving legally no.

    Man, you're off in left field here. First of all don't tell me who I do and do not care about.

    Secondly, if I understand this blather correctly. If the guy next door to me is kidnapped and enslaved in a foreign country then brought back to my home town and I buy him then I'm suppressing his freedom.

    This is a totally unrealistic example for today's world. If my neighbor is kidnapped his rights given him by this nation's government have been violated and this nation's laws against kidanpping have been violated. Even if I wanted to buy by neighbor I couldn't as it's ILLEGAL for me to do so.

    This is ridiculous. :rolleyes:

    You don't listen do you. I didn't say anything about me obeying the Sudan's Gov't. I said if MY gov't....

    First off.. :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Secondly I've never made the assumption that the Bible was false.

    I'm assuming that NRSV stands for NEW REVISED STANDARD VERSION. The NEW REVISED part was enough for me.

    I'll post another reply that I put in another thread in case you missed it that sums up what I think about people changing the meaning of scripture to fit their need since it quite obvious that if the verse in I Timothy was indicating slavers instead of menstealers it would be in vast contradiction with many other scriptures where slavers were called righteous and honorable men such as Onesimus.


    I've come to the conclusion that you would rather maintain your cozy little image of God and the mind of Christ instead of face reality so unless you have a particular text you would like to debate I'm through with the hypotheticals and banter.

    Kent Witcher
     
  9. Kent Witcher

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    As mentioned in an earlier thread, the American institution was built around those who the Bible calls "enslavers,"

    It amazes me how all these people who never wanted to listen to what Bro. Osgatharp or myself or others quoted from the Bible but someone comes up with some new revised translation that uses the word enslavers instead of menstealers which has been the word used for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden they care about what the Bible says.

    Gimme a break!
     
  10. Kent Witcher

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    I'd like to clarify this a little more before the wolves converge....

    What I mean is that if a person's gov't gives them the right to own slaves and sets up a social order in which men are slaves then it is not only legal it is not evil.

    The only evil in which I would be participating today if I owned or attempted to own a slave would be that I would be breaking the law of my gov't which is strictly forbidden by God.

    We forget that the so called unalienable rights that we have as Americans are given to us by the United States of America they are not God given rights as many have been duped into believing.

    We have the God given right to do what God said to do and that's it.

    So kidnapping is evil and sinful and damnable and anything else that fits.

    Owning slaves or buying/selling slaves is not intrinsically wicked or sinful. The treatment of such slaves can or cannot be depending on the person and situation.
     
  11. Pete Richert

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    By all means.

    Agreed with one reservation.

    Agreed with one reservation.

    Agreed.

    I am SOOOOOOOOOO glad we agree on this one.

    Ah, agreed.

    Since we are in so much agreement here perhaps I can lay down my aformentioned reservation and wrap this up. You agree that kidnapping is wrong (or menstealing as not to offend your senitivies to not using a 17th century word), indeed, intriniscally wrong perhaps. Perhaps you might agree that kidnapping is wrong whether my governement says it is okay or not?

    I will pause here because if you don't agree that we simply disagree. But I thought this was a fair guess from, "So kidnapping is evil and sinful and damnable and anything else that fits."

    Perhaps you might agree that kidnapping someone and then selling them as a slave is wrong whether my govenment agrees or not. Perhaps you would agree that men in Africa were kidnapped and then sold into slavery, and since it is wrong in 2003 that was probably wrong in 1400-1650.

    Therefor . . . . perhaps you might agree that is was wrong to buy in America men who were kidnapped and sold into slavery between 1400-1650.

    Do we agree on this?
     
  12. LadyEagle

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  13. Tanker

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;What I mean is that if a person's gov't gives them the right to own slaves and sets up a social order in which men are slaves then it is not only legal it is not evil.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Morality and ethics are not determined by governments. Anyone who does not think slavery is wrong has a strange sense of morality. I agree with Lincoln when he said that "If slavery is not wrong, then nothing is wrong".

    If you can justify slavery on moral grounds then is there anything that cannot be justified?
     
  14. Tanker

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Owning slaves or buying/selling slaves is not intrinsically wicked or sinful. The treatment of such slaves can or cannot be depending on the person and situation. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Even in the south slaver traders were not considered respectable people.
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    Slavery is going on today in America.

    It's called Taxation without Representation. When was the last time your elected politician voted in your best interest? They just voted to give themselves another raise.

    How much of your pay check is going to taxes?

    Call it what you will, I call it slavery. And there is nothing moral about it. [​IMG]
     
  16. KenH

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    You tell 'em, SheEagle. If working until around July 11 to pay for all of federal, State, and local government spending isn't slavery, then the word "slavery" no longer has any meaning.
     
  17. Frogman

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    What about paying these public servants their annual salary for the rest of their lives? And a percentage of it to their spouses? What about the 13 states of emergencies our federal government is currently operating under in order to levy income taxes?

    What is up with having the power to vote yourself an annual raise? These people aren't playing with their own money folks...why can't they agree on anything but a joint annual raise?
    :confused:

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    My congressman often votes for my best interest. He knows that if he doesn't, my neighborhood will find a new congressman.

    About the right amount. I really enjoyed my public school. I like driving on roads. I was very appreciative for my federal scholarship that paid my way through school. I like the fact that some of what I pay in taxes goes to help others less fortunate than me. I'm glad I can help support a military so I'm not attacked in the middle of the night by a foreign enemy.

    When we forget what we receive in return for our taxes, we should be thankful. If you make less than 250,000 dollars, you end up getting more than you give. I think William Raspberry commented on that in an editorial many years ago.

    Would you rather have no public schools, no roads, no nothing?

    I like interstates myself.
     
  19. ScottEmerson

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    For all the slavery apologists, the point is that the word for enslavers is "andrapodistes," which more accurately means "one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery, as well as one who steals slaves and sells them" according to Thayer's. If these slaves were once free and Americans bought them, then they are violating God's command. And this is what was going on prior to the Civil War.
     
  20. rlvaughn

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    In what sense does one justly reduce free men to slavery?
     

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