Slavery, The Bible, and Infidelism

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 29, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    The issue is not whether or not some slaves were treated badly. All parties acknowledge that they were.

    The issue is not about race.

    The issue is not whether or not the North should have invaded the South. They did. They won. They freed the slaves. Anyone who believes in the providence of God among nations must believe this was God's providential will (which does not necessarily mean that the parties involved were obeying the revealed will of God).

    The issue is twofold:

    1. That, as long as slavery was legal, it was the duty of Christian slaves to be obedient to their masters, "not only to the good and gentle but also to the froward."

    2. That the word of God never judges a man for the mere fact of owning another man. To the contrary, it commends several slave owners in highest terms. For example, Abraham, the Roman Centurion, and Philemon.

    The abolitionist and other social movements of the the 19th and early 20th centuries - namely the feminist movement, the "temperance" movement, the youth movements, and the socialist movement - greatly affected the Baptist approach to the Scriptures. It was during that time that Baptists began to exalt human wisdom above the Scriptures.

    Now we are moving towards the "gay rights movement." Just as before, there will be those who resist, but in a matter of time acceptance of homosexuality among Baptist churches will be common place.

    As a matter of fact, a couple of weeks ago a black "Missionary Baptist" pastor in Little Rock, when interviewed about his opinion of the Episcopal church electing a homosexual bishop, said that homosexuals were welcome to take communion in his church, but just not to hold leadership positions.

    "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    The Abolition Movement was the culmination of BAD THEOLOGY, centered around Unitarian/Universalist belief. It was a humanistic, knee-jerk reaction to perceived ills. Until that movement there was never a problem with Baptists and slavery.

    The Temperance (no alcohol at all) Movement was the culmination of BAD THEOLOGY that tried to reform society beyond what the Bible teaches. It was a humanistic, knee-jerk reaction to perceived ills. Until that movement there never was a problem with Baptists and moderate drinking of alcohol.

    The Feminist Movement was the culmination of BAD THEOLOGY form liberal churches that did not accept the Biblical teaching or authority about the role of women. It was a humanistic, knee-jerk reaction to perceived ills. Until that movement, only the most liberal of Baptists would even consider ordaining a woman.

    And on with Blacks and Civil Rights
    And Gay rights

    Think you're on to something here, Mark. Good post.
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Dr. Bob,

    The underlying problem with all these issues is the false perception that it is the duty of the churches to work with the world in the correction of social evils.

    The Scriptures aim at converting men and making them godly in life and preparing them for eternity, not at transforming evil society. So, even though some of the perceived evils associated with politics, education, alcohol, or the treatment of women, slaves, children, the unborn, or laborers, may be real, it is not the work of the church to correct these societal wrongs.

    The only way the churches could possibly help correct these wrongs would be to work hand in hand with ungodly people and institutions. Any such alliances will serve only to corrupt the churches. For example, the anti-abortion movement has greatly broken down the wall of separation between Baptists and Roman Catholcism.

    The kingdom of God operates with its own unique rules and agenda. It is not of this world. Any attempt to unite it with this world will serve only to contaminate the kingdom. Baptists are currently reaping the bitter fruit of near 200 years of such contamination.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    So let me get this straight - just so I don't misunderstand.

    Equality between whites and blacks is a bad thing, and we should not pursue it.

    Setting the slaves free is a bad thing, and we were wrong to pursue it.

    Giving women the right to vote is a bad thing, and Christians were wrong to pursue it.

    Are these accurate statements?
     
  5. Gunther

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    No, they aren't. It would be nice to see you stay on topic though.
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

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    No, they aren't. It would be nice to see you stay on topic though. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for this post, Gunther. Scott has a fine way of twisting what others (as well as the Bible) say to suit himself. Why, he even mis-quoted himself once when what he had said previously didn't suit him. [​IMG]

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. Terry_Herrington

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    I am interesting in seeing Dr. Bob's response to these questions also.
     
  8. Jimmy C

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    The problem with slavery as it was carried out in the pre civil war era, and for that matter our current era when women are sold as sex slaves, is that is was so very inhumane.

    I read several of the testimonies from the freed slaves - they were whipped, raped, used as breeding stock, and families separated. These were not "perceived ills", these were facts, the treatment was inhumane.

    I still submit that the abolitionists had the hand of God on them, and that God blessed the Union in its victory over the south - despite the south having the better soldiers and officers.

    I do not believe that God would have seen them escaping such opression as sin.

    So you boys pontificate on, but I believe that our country has suffered, and still suffers from the sin of slavery that we foisted upon a race of people solely because of the color of their skin.

    If you take your positions into the pulpit, I also submit that you will never have people of other races in your fellowship, and that is perhaps fine with you.

    Our chruch is blessed to have many races in our congregation, including our deacon body.
     
  9. KenH

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    1) I don't buy that argument for an instance. The North had about 4 times more men to use as soldiers, a much larger navy, and a much larger industrial base. Personally, I think if the South had had a larger population, the good guys would have won. Remember might does not make right. Just because the Yankees won doesn't mean they were in the right(I believe they were in the wrong).

    2) I don't buy that argument, either. We have had the largest economy in the world for decades, even before World War I. And we have the greatest military force the world has ever known since World War II. Besides, the slaves were freed about 140 years ago. Now it is true that racism was a problem in the South and particularly in the North, for about 100 years after that, but that is still not slavery, and all people groups must deal with prejudice in their hearts.
     
  10. Mark Osgatharp

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    Jimmy C,

    Do you believe the word of God commanded slaves to obey and respect their masters, whether those masters were believers or unbelievers?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  11. ChurchBoy

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    In war, there are no good guys. I doubt it very much that the slaves would have referred to the South as the "good" guys.
     
  12. KenH

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    You don't think the Allies were the good guys in World War II?

    Actually, there were blacks who fought - willingly - for the Confederacy. It was their homeland that was invaded by the North as well. And, as research will show you, attitudes towards blacks in the the North were certainly no better, and maybe worse, than they were in the South.
     
  13. Gunther

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    Typical tactic when you have nothing to say. Just keep repeating rhetoric and hope others don't discern it.

    The "north" didn't invade anything. The Federal government ultimately has the authority over every inch of land, Ken. It was necessary to remove the semi-organized mafia types from office.

    "General" Lee should have been hung as a war criminal. He is responsible for the death of thousands of americans. He was the Osama bin Laden of the those days.
     
  14. KenH

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    1)They don't own my property. Do they own yours, Gunther?

    2)That is one of the stupidest, most evil things I have ever read that a person has
    written. :mad:

    Robert E. Lee was asked to command the Union army. Has Osama bin Laden ever been offered the chairmanship of the USA Joint Chiefs of Staff?

    I see, Gunther, that you would have been one of the Radical Republicans back in the 1860's who brought so much misery to this country. I bet you would have supported the impeachment of President Johnson back then.

    I guess if you and I had been living in the 1860's we would have been shooting at each other. Instead I am simply reading your imbecilic comments. :mad:

    Oh, by the way, you still have never explained why you think the Revolutionary War was okay, but the War for Southern Independence was not okay. Just admit you are biased, that that is the only reason you would support the former but not the latter.

    God save the South!

    [​IMG]

    [ August 29, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]
     
  15. Gunther

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    1. Try not paying property taxes and we will see how long it is before they take it back.

    2. Lee led a group of rebels (without legal or biblical cause) to fight against the US government. Osama did the same thing. Osama used americans against americans. Lee used... You get the point.

    3. I am getting to it. I am just demonstrating that the South time and again only stood on their own misguided prejudice.
     
  16. KenH

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    I totally disagree. You should be ashamed to make such comments about Robert E. Lee. I could make similar disparaging comments about your heros, U.S. Grant and W.T.Sherman, but I refuse to crawl with you into the slimy gutter you are in. ;)
     
  17. KenH

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    Hey, Gunther, I have never paid one cent of property tax to the federal government on my home. If you have, I think you need a new tax accountant. [​IMG]
     
  18. Gunther

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    Hey, Gunther, I have never paid one cent of property tax to the federal government on my home. If you have, I think you need a new tax accountant. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, work with me here. People pay property tax to the local government. However, at any time, if the US Government needed to, they could remove you from your own land (with compensation) and assume it for their own purposes.

    So you don't pay property taxes to the feds, but your land is still ultimately subject to them.

    Keep tossin' those softballs.
     
  19. Gunther

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    Mark, I apologize for this. With all the threads on the triumph over the south, that I began mixing them together. I will not post anymore in this thread unless it is part of what you intended.
     
  20. KenH

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    Gunther, you just hate it when I keep proving you wrong, don't you? :D
     

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