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Slowdown Due to Changing Speed of Light

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by UTEOTW, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Eric

    Barry Setterfield (Helen's husband if you haven't caught on) is adamant that as light slows the wavelength stays the same. It's right at the top of one of his FAQs.

    If you follow the link that Paul gave you, you will see a graph that shows what the actual measurment looks like. What you are seeing when measuring the rotational speed of a galaxy is the difference in wavelength of a specific "line" between the side moving towards you and the side moving away. (What I mean by "line" is a particular absorption or emission line. Each element and compound emits and absorbs energy at very specific frequencies. For example, hydrogen has four absorption lines in the visible spectrum, at wavelengths of 6563 "Angstroms" (A) in the red, at 4861 A in the blue, and at 4300 A and 4101 A in the violet. These lines can be used as fingerprints for the various elements and molecules.) You look for these lines and see how far off they have been shifted from what they should be. By taking the difference in wavelength between those coming towards and those heading away from you, you can get the speed. You use the formula I used above or something like it.

    I do not thing the reference helps. There just is not enough mass to gravitationally hold the galaxies together at the speeds they would have to be going to get the readings we get if light were slowing down. There are also relativistic effects because the galaxies would be required to rotate near or above the speed of light. Nothing can go faster than the speed of light.
     
  2. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    This is a good thinking on your part. The slow down effect we would expect to see from looking at distant galaxies would look EXACTLY like a red shift. The problem for Setterfield cdk theory is the red shifts we see are just way to small to account for the extreme amounts of light speed changes necessary to make the galaxies from distant parts of the universe visible to our eyes in a mere 10,000 years. The great galaxy in andromeda, 2.8 million light years away, is not red shifted at all. It is slightly blue shifted. Look for it to collide with us in about 2 - 3 billion years, and don't say I didn't warn you it was coming!

    As you know, astronomers routinely consider the red shift to be an indication that the universe is expanding.


    That site attempts to unify all physics and whatever we think of his efforts, the phenomenon we are looking at - how things would appear if light changed its speed - are perfectly well able to be discussed and understood at the less exalted levels of light, wave length, doppler shifts, and so forth.

    UT pointed out Barry Setterfield has always insisted it is the frequency of light that changes when light slows, not the wave length. He has to maintain that, because if the wave length were to change, the extreme changes (so extreme as to be impossible, in my humble opinion) he proposes would make the wave length of light so much longer in the days of living men such as Adam and Enoch that light would not be able to be focused into images within the human eye.

    He certainly wants to avoid THAT little problem for his theory.
     
  3. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Sorry to barge in where I have so little knowledge, but I have a question:

    If waves are slowing down, then light waves would not be the only waves affected. Since light is only the waves that we can see, it seems to me that if there were a change then we would merely be seeing a different part of the wave spectrum.

    Is this correct?
     
  4. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Not really. Look back to the part of the explanation where I pointed out the emission and absorbtion lines. These are very specific and can be found conclusively for a given species even when far red shifted. It is how we tell what things in space are made from. These fingerprints are just moved around. Another set of fingerprints, if shifted, would not look the same.

    Don't apologize, questions are nice.
     
  5. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The frequency IS the wavelength! I don't know all of Saterfield's ideas, though I found the idea of light slowing to be interesting. I was dead set against YEC until I heard that, and then I realized that we really don't know for sure. These theories take as much faith as believing in an invisible God. Still, I am not pushing his theory, just raising some questions of my own. I know this may sound like another last-ditch attempt to maintain a young earth, but I think it could be true, and that any falsifiable "proof" could possibly have been erased in the process. It involves the new exciting world of string theory.
    It is possible that something like this may have already occurred, but on a lesser extent. A different orbifold where the Standard model is generally present and life as we knew it could exist, and live through the transformation to our present physics, but things were different enough to change our perception of what happened. So then perhaps light was faster and slowed down in this transition without having those effects, and without whatever you all pointed out about atoms and their functions. Who knows; with this, old creationist theories like the water canopy in the sky, or other unrealistic sounding explanations of where all the water came from and went for example, really become not so impossible after all. I also believe this might be the mechanism by which the New Heavens and Earth are brought in. It would be the true vacuum, and perfect.
     
  6. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Eric

    "The frequency IS the wavelength! "

    Well, normally, yes. There is a relationship between frequency, wavelength, and the speed of light. Since the speed of light is fixed, knowing the frequency gives you wavelength or the other way around. But when the speed starts changing, either the wavelength or the frequency has to change with it. Well, it actually could be both.

    "I don't know all of Saterfield's ideas, though I found the idea of light slowing to be interesting. I was dead set against YEC until I heard that, and then I realized that we really don't know for sure. These theories take as much faith as believing in an invisible God."

    Well, it is an interesting idea. But look back through this thread. There are plenty of lines of observational evidence that are predicted from his hypothesis. None seem to have been observed. Some of these should be exceedingly simple to observe, the galaxy rotation for example, but have not. In addition, many others have examined the data set and have not been able to draw the conclusion that the speed of light is changing. It is an interesting idea, but most likely it stems from a gradual increase in the precision and accuracy of light speed measurements of the last few centuries.

    "It is possible that something like this may have already occurred, but on a lesser extent. A different orbifold where the Standard model..."

    Well, think about it. You would not be able to see it coming, but you might be able to see it after it went past. Think of a sound wave. You do not hear it until it arrives, but you can observe echoes after this time. It is possible that such "echoes" of the change would be coming in to us. We could be able to look into space, back in time, and see places where the physics does not match what we observe here. There is even the possibility that such a change would be recorded here somehow. If the physics changed so radically, you might find rocks that formed in a way that cannot be explained, for instance. But, who knows? But for the Setterfield model, this would have to have happened over and over and over in a specific way. And all at once throughout the universe. Still leaves problems, though.
     
  7. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Well, if the news laws erased those waves (and reformed the rocks according to the new way)...
    Or maybe we just don't recognize the evidence. Well, this is all speculation, but I just think people should keep this in mind.
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    Well, Eric B, lets look just at galactic rotation. Our star orbits the center of our galaxy; all the stars of our galaxy together, doing this, makes a galaxy that is said to be rotating.

    If we observe another galaxy by light that left that galaxy, say, moving at a million times the speed of light today, then along the way that light slowed down to the speed we have now for light, and we judge the rotation of the other galaxy by that now greatly slowed light, do you see how that would make the rotation now seem to be a million times slower?

    ( )yes, I see how that would be the expected result. So Setterfield theory must be wrong, after all.
    ( )no, it wouldn't happen because . . .

    ( )undecided, I am puzzled by your argument because . .

    No fair taking choice "no" or "undecided" without filling in the part after "because . ."!
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    Not to intrude on this discussion - but what would even give anyone the idea that light would slow down - at least travelling in a vacuum?

    Einstein's theory wouldn't exclude light being slowed down artificially by changing the medium of travel - but it seems that the 3x10(8) m/s is an effective asymptote for velocity of light or any object.
     
  10. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    ( )undecided, I am puzzled by your argument because . .
    I am not well versed in this aspect of this field, or at least can't think too deeply on it now. Just offering some ideas I had though ot, and seeing how you would answer them. Thanks for the response.
     
  11. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    UTEOTW,

    I've tried to find it, but couldn't. Would you please tell me what day and time you posted it in?
    Yes, I'm familiar with the process. My cousin uses an Iodine cell for this purpose in order to find planets in other solar systems.
     
  12. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    "I've tried to find it, but couldn't. Would you please tell me what day and time you posted it in?"

    No problem. On May 05, 2004 06:26 PM I posted the following. "What I mean by "line" is a particular absorption or emission line. Each element and compound emits and absorbs energy at very specific frequencies. For example, hydrogen has four absorption lines in the visible spectrum, at wavelengths of 6563 "Angstroms" (A) in the red, at 4861 A in the blue, and at 4300 A and 4101 A in the violet. These lines can be used as fingerprints for the various elements and molecules."

    Since you are asking, let me try again a different way. The electrons is an element or compound are quantized. That is they occur in discrete steps. When an electron changes orbits, it either absorbs or releases a specific quanta of energy. You can calculate the frequency (or wavelength if you prefer) from the value of this quanta of energy. Now, each possible orbit in each possible element or compound happens to vary from the orbits around it by very specific quantas of energy that differ between the various elements and compounds. So, when a particular substance gets "energized," as it drops back to its ground state it emits energy at very specific frequencies as it gives off energy and the electrons drop into lower orbits. By the same token, if light is passing through a substance, it will absorb energy at exactly the wavelengths that provide exactly the amount of energy to promote an electron to a higher energy orbit. These are referred to as emission and absorbtion lines. They are very specific for each substance. When light is red (or blue) shifted, these lines are moved, of course. But their pattern remains the same. So we have a fingerprint for each substance that is specific enough that we can still find the fingerprint even if it is shifted due to differences in relative velocities or by the expansion of space during its transit time. I hope that helps.

    "Yes, I'm familiar with the process. My cousin uses an Iodine cell for this purpose in order to find planets in other solar systems."

    Way cool! :cool: [​IMG]

    Do you mind me asking which which group he works for so I can look 'em up and see which planets he has been involved with finding?
     
  13. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I think it was the word 'species' that was throwing me off. It made me think you were talking about living organisms not elements.

    My cousin's name is Paul Butler.
     
  14. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    In my background, we frequently will use "species" as a catch all phrase. Sorry for the confusion.

    "My cousin's name is Paul Butler."

    Wow. He is one of the leading guys in the field, isn't he? I think he pioneered the main technique for finding planets and has been involved with a really big chunk of the known exosolar planets. I find that stuff fascinating. Thanks.
     
  15. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Yes, he is one of the leading guys in the field. Having a famous relative is cool.
     
  16. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Bump.

    Helen had been quite busy for a while and this topic got pushed right off to the back in the mean time. She seems to be posting again lately, so maybe she has time to pick it back up. I have even seen a post from Barry, and that happens so infrequently.

    Anyhow, I think we are up to five questions in play.
     
  17. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Bump. This subject has come up on another thread so I thought I would bump this in case someone wants to keep that discussion going in a thread more closely tied to changes in the speed of light. I also am hoping to get the questions answered.

    I think the galaxy rotational speed question may be the easiest to see. The formula is quite simple. It is apparent from just glancing at the formula that a higher light velocity would have an inversely proportional effect on the difference in a particular line from each side of the galaxy. Since you are looking at the difference of a single line from one side of the galaxy to the other it does not matter if the light has been red shifted or if the lines were emitted at different wavelengths in the past since the lines from both sides of the galaxy would be affected the same. Plus this is a very common measurement and so the large discrepancies predicted should have made themselves very obvious by now. It is a quite simple observation that can rule out the possibility of the proposal or can say that here is one simple observation that is in agreement. But the effects predicted are not seen.

    The other four questions from the first page I would still like to be looked at also. (Observations of anomolies in the timing of gravitationally governed systems, examples of the light speed history for light from some specific objects, why a changing speed of light makes a blck hole brighter, and observations of gravitational lensing)
     
  18. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This is a good "story-vs-story" thanks for pulling it back up.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    So, BobRyan, if two lawyers tell stories about the defendant, is it ever justifiable for the jury to convict him? After all, the defense attourney always seems able to come up with a story . . . aren't there times when the evidence is enough to convict?
     
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