Smashing the "T" out of TULIP

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. steaver

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    "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. (2Th2:7)

    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (8)

    [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (9)

    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (10)

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (11)

    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (12)

    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (13)

    Verses 10 and 11 destroys the "T" of TULIP for this reason; Total Depravity as defined by Calvinism teaches that no one can choose to believe in Christ, God must first give them regeneration. It teaches that lost mankind can in no way choose to believe in Jesus Christ, it just cannot happen, no exceptions!

    Verse 11 destroys this teaching. Unless one of our calvinist friends can explain to us why God has to send a delusion to damn people who are already damned? According to TULIP they are already damned and cannot see Christ, so why the delusion? So they can be double damned?

    We can see in verse (13) why one is considered "chosen". It is revealed in this; through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    This passage declares it is a choice of to believe or not to believe and it is squarely on the individual, whether they chose not and took pleasure in unrighteousness or whether they chose to believe unto salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit (rebirth).

    The "T" is destroyed by this one passage alone.
     
  2. preacher4truth

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    Not quite, nor even close as you've skipped right past Total Depravity, and have gone into free will and choosing, while the real matter of Who chooses escapes you.

    The thing the passage teaches is that God has chosen them. How did He choose them? It's right in the text, via the santification of the Spirit, akin to 1 Peter 1:1-5; Ephesians 1:4; Galatians 1:15; Acts 2:47, Acts 9; and is even contextually supported not only in the passage you use, but also previous in chapter 2:13, and also 1 Thess. 1:4. And there are more passages that teach this truth.

    Thus the 'T in TULIP' is not 'destroyed' in the passage you've used.

    Now, to get concisely to what you are attempting to address which was to be 'Total Depravity'. The passage you've used, and what you've addressed is actually 'choosing.' But this is the difference; He chooses, as the passages supplied support this. It is He who quickens us and even gifts us the faith to believe. Bottom line: It's all Him, which makes Him both Savior and Lord.
     
  3. mont974x4

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    Who is sending the truth?
    Who is causing the delusion?
    Who enlightens men by leading them into truth?


    Man does none of those things. From start to finish salvation is a work of God.
    Total depravity teaches us that man is utterly and completely sinful. We cannot even see the truth in order to accept it without God drawing us.


    What you have done is made these verses to say things that they don't in order to deny the seriousness of the man's sin.
     
  4. evangelist-7

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    You realize that there are loads of verses which appear to offer a free-will choice.
    Several reasons for this. But, it all depends on how you read the verses.

    Just quickly on the surface ...
    IMO, your verses refer to the lawless one who will come with lies.
    The ones who are perishing ... previously did not receive the love of the truth, i.e. the gospel.
    Thus, God will send a strong delusion upon them, so they will be deceived by the lawless one,
    re: power, signs, lying wonders, etc.
    Nothing to do with salvation ... free will style or otherwise.
     
  5. webdog

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    Verse 9 is plain as the nose on your face. Are you going to put that rejection onto God? (man does non of those things)
     
  6. TCassidy

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    LOL! I'm sorry, but it strikes me as being very funny that the OP thinks, because God uses Satan and the Antichrist as instruments of His judgment, that this somehow proves that some part of man is unfallen and is able to come to Christ on his own merit!

    LOL! RORLOL!

    Steaver, let me give you some good advice. Stop getting your theology by surfing the web. Get some good books and actually read up on systematic theology, biblical theology, putting extra effort into reading on the subject of soteriology. :)

    I realize you come from a church background that is not only thoroughly arminian but also boarders on pentecostal/charismatic with its teaching of "crisis sanctification" but you really should branch out and read some of the excellent works written by monergists.

    I recommend:

    John Newton
    Thomas Manton
    William Gurnall
    Cotton Mather
    Martin Luther (Especially his classic "Bondage of the Will)
    John Bunyon
    Matthew Henry

    Try to break away from the little denominational box you have been living in and see what the rest of Christendom has to offer. :)
     
  7. steaver

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    I haven't desputed this, in fact I supported it. God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: (13)

    Now, what you did not address is the question raised in the OP to the Calvinist, you totally ignored it. Why does God need to send a delusion to damn those who are already damned-Totally Depraved?
     
  8. steaver

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    Correct, so why does God need to send a delusion to damn those who are already damned?
     
  9. steaver

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    The scripture states they refused to believe the gospel and be saved. Thus, it is on man to believe. God sends them a delusion so they will be damned. Why does God need to make sure the damned remain damned? What else could they do?
     
  10. steaver

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    Been reading books for 15 years now and especially the good ole KJV! Did you ever read John Piper's "Spectacular Sins"? Great read!

    So maybe you would like to explain why God needs to send a delusion to damn the already damned?
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    I cannot think of another theology book in my library much further from the truth than this one.
     
  12. TCassidy

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    I already did. You skipped over it. :)
     
  13. TCassidy

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    Wow! So you accept the Roman Catholic position as outlined in De Libero Arbitrio Diatribe Sive Collatio?
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    steave

    The non elect are born damned. Their unbelief merely gives evidence that they are damned. Jesus plainly says that those who believe not [the Gospel] shall be damned Mk 16:16

    16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    In other words, unbelief, is the evidence of being damned, of being in a Lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4

    3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    You're squirming and not facing the facts here and you know it. Don't deceive yourself so readily steaver, the answers are there for you to see in Scripture as several have given you. Sometimes we have to humble ourselves and lose our preconceived notions about 'free will' and other things not found in Scripture. I've been there, it's humbling, and I know you see it, but it's about you humbling yourself here to accept these truths.

    You quoted this portion (that they're chosen) then talked of how they made a choice, that it's all a choice in a round about way. The text doesn't support your ideology, nor does Scripture (see the references I gave you). In fact, you gave no interpretation, you simply underlined and bolded portions that did not reinforce one thing you attempted to convey, and the only thing glaringly obvious are your presuppositions.

    The fact in the passage which you yet avoid is that it is God and God alone who chooses, not man as you are making implication. Thus your interpretation and point are incorrect.

    Please look at the passages I've given you, they also reveal this truth that it is God who chooses. It is also true that it is God who gifts faith to believe to His sheep.

    To your question. Why does God do this (send strong delusion)?

    Here's the answer, hope you're ready: Because God is exercising justice on one group and He is exercising grace upon the others He has chosen.

    Do you have a problem with God here steaver, as you've mentioned (as though you're startled) about them being 'double-damned'?

    These are hard truths for some to accept, humbling, and facts which glorify God and cause us to stand in awe of Him.
     
    #15 preacher4truth, Apr 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2012
  16. steaver

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    This is your answer? You believe God must double damn them? This makes no sense at all. The passage clearly teaches that these people refused to believe the gospel, not that they could not, but that they refused and are guilty for not receiving the love of the truth. Now if they are already eternally damned and have no chance of repentance to belief as TULIP declares, then they have no need for another delusion so they may be damned again. Pray the Holy Spirit and think it through casting aside any preconceived ideas you might have about TULIP. Ask of God and He will help you.
     
  17. steaver

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    AMEN! Now do you have an answer as to why God would need to damn them again with a delusion so they cannot believe the truth??
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    No, you're the one saying that God must double damn them. You're putting words in others mouths. Why not put an end to that?

    You are obviously struggling with this concerning God sending stong delusion. Haven't you read Scriptures where God used the minions of Satan in the OT to accomplish His purposes, even via secondary means? Even human instruments as Sovereign God to accomplish His purposes?

    If you believe what God does here makes no sense at all, I'd suppose you have a problem with Him doing so, which seems to be the issue. There seems tio be some anger and/or bitterness here. Generally these things are considered unfair, mean &c by those who see others as innocent or as not receiving fair treatment as if it is deserved, or as if all men have a right. Of course none of these things are true, nor are they the facts of Scripture. What we have here is an exercising of justice and rightly so.

    Lastly, your OP has failed incredibly to smash the 'T' in Tulip. Far from it and way off course.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    The thing you're really struggling with here is the Sovereignty of God to do as He wills to do with whom He wills to do so.

    Are these folks innocent? Cannot God in His omnisapience exercise justice as He sees fit? Did not God blind others that they would not believe the Gospel? Doesn't God allow Satan to blind the minds of others?

    Steaver, why do you have a problem with these truths?

    Are you replying against the Potter steaver?

    Most certainly.

    As I said these are hard truths that you need to come to grips with. I need to go, but your OP fails to smash a thing.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Verse 10 provides the reason for verse 11.

    Jesus says that man comes into the world "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17-18) because all enter into the world as unbelievers. No one comes into the world with a believing heart.

    Second, when they are confronted with the gospel of truth they are additionally condemned as the consequence as John the Baptist clearly states in John 3:36.

    So those in verse 10 came into the world condemned as unbelievers (Jn. 3:17-18) and then received not the love of the truth when confronted with the gospel and so their unbelief became more aggrevated.

    Paul is merely repeated the downward digression of condemnation spelled out in Romans 1:24-29 ("v. 24 Wherefore God gave them up......v. 26 For this cause God gave them over......v. 28 ....God gave them over...).

    So there is a digression in condemnation. The more light they are exposed to and reject the greater increase of condemnation.

    Hence verse 10 and 11 do not destroy any aspect of TULIP but really supports it fully. There is no double "damned" but rather increasing condemnation of those who are damned by their initial and increasing unbelief and rejection. Or as Stephen tells the Jewish rejectors of Christ - "ye do ALWAYS RESIST the Holy Spirit" as did your fathers (Acts 7:51). Hence, their increasing rejection produces increasing condemnation unto damnation and PROVES TOTAL DEPRAVITY.



    Why are you editing Pauls own words? He said the reason they were saved was because they were "chosen TO salvation. Do you know the difference between "to" (Gr. eis) and "through" (Gr. dia)???? They were saved because God chose them "TO" or "UNTO" salvation. HOW they were saved is described by "dia" or "through." Only by editing Paul and rewriting it can you support your intepretation.
     

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