Snow White

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by richard n koustas, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Snow White

    This may be really, really, really random, but did you ever do a search on snow and white*? Some observations:

    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. – Is. 1:18

    Snow white is the color of leprosy (Ex. 4:6, Num. 12:10, 2 Sam. 23:20).

    Aren’t lepers a type of sinner and leprosy a type of sin?

    So, according to Is. 1:18, sins were red, now they’re snow white – but still sin!?!

    Now in Psalms 51:7 we read: Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

    Psalm 51, as best I can tell, seems to be either a reference to the red heifer, to the laws regarding the leper in Lev. 14. If the latter, then, what? Are our sins snow white, yet we are whiter? I'm confused....:cool:
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you are badly mixing metaphors.
     
  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Si, Si, King Edward! Uh- Oh! I guess I mixed languages.

    Ed
     
  4. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    This may account for my confusion(!)

    Please feel free to unmix or remix the metaphors for me.
     
  5. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0
    Take another example of leaven, in one example Matt 13 it is compared to the kingdom of God and in another example Matt 16 it is compared to the sin of the Pharisees. Basically each passage must be taken in the context it was given.

    Do you know what the white stuff is on the top of chicken poop?

    I can assure you that it has as much to do with sinlessness as does the crippled hand of a leper.
     
  6. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not sure what you're getting at here. leaven is leaven is leaven. the meaning of leaven is the same in matt 13 and matt 16 as well as exodus 12 (unleavened bread at the passover) and lev. 23:17 (wave offering with leavened loaves during the feast of weeks). it represents contamination, sin, even evil.

    btw, i have no idea what that white stuff is...and i'm afraid to ask for fear of stepping in some:eek:

    If my metaphors are mixed (on the snow white issue), please explain.
     
  7. Snitzelhoff

    Snitzelhoff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wellll, in most cases, leaven is used as a symbol of contamination, etc. However, in Matthew 13:33, Jesus compares leaven to something entirely different--the Kingdom of Heaven. So, just like your illustration with whiteness, that shows that the context of a metaphor is necessary to understand the meaning of the metaphor.

    Michael
     
  8. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    are you suggesting that the leaven in matt 13 does not represent sin or evil? at the risk of hijacking my thread, i disagree. in the parable, the woman adds leaven to 3 measures of meal. what's wrong with this picture? she has leaven in the meal. leaven always means sin/evil everywhere else in the bible, why not here? am i the only one that sees this? is she not preparing a meal offering (or meat or grain depending on the version you prefer)? what is required in the meal offering? not leaven, but oil. oil either sprinkled or mingled. the oil represents the Holy Spirit. she has replaced the oil (that represents the Holy Spirit) with the leaven (that represents evil).

    now, what are you saying about the context of the color of snow?
     
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is some "deep" theology". :tongue3:
     
  10. Snitzelhoff

    Snitzelhoff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    0
    Richard n koustas, I was not merely suggesting that leaven in Matthew 13 does not represent sin or evil; I believe I outright stated it. Anyway, let's take a look at this real quick.

    First, what is the context of this verse? It's a series of parables about the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom is compared to a man sowing wheat in a field, a mustard seed, three measures of leaven in bread, a treasure hidden in a field, a merchent seeking pearls, and a net that gathered a catch of fish. Jesus not once says "The Kingdom of Heaven is like something bad." Why? Obviously, because it's not bad. So, if Jesus says, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven," then He's using leaven in a good sense in this passage.

    True, Jesus broke away from the norm in using a metaphor in that sense, but that's His right; nevertheless, let us look at what property of leaven He's using to compare to the Kingdom of Heaven. Both in Matthew 13 and in Luke 13, contextually, this parable follows directly after the parable about the mustard seed, in which the seed's ability to grow was the crux of the parable. I submit that He was comparing the Kingdom of Heaven to leaven in essentially the same way: Leaven spreads throughout the dough and makes the bread grow.

    Furthermore, there's no evidence, textual or contextual, that she was creating a grain offering. She may well have been baking bread. After all, the other parables involved people fishing or planting crops.

    So, as Jesus said, the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven. Be careful of calling evil that which Jesus said is like the Kingdom.

    Now, about the whiteness, let's look at the context of Isaiah 1:18. The entire chapter has a twofold message: the sinful state of Israel, and the promise of future cleansing. God tells of the sinful state in verses 2 through 15, and then of the cleansing in 16 through 19. Then He rehearses again the sinful state in verses 21 through 23, and then again the cleansing in 24 through 31 (the end of the chapter, although the last bit is coupled with judgment of the wicked).

    It's clear from the location and context of the verse that 1:18 is talking about being cleansed from sin, or the stains of sin. The use of the colors scarlet and crimson are significant because in the previous declaration of Israel's sinful state and just three verses earlier, God said that He would hide His eyes from them and turn away because of the bloodshed on their hands.

    Psalm 51, again, is about being purified from a sinful state. Specifically, it's David's plea for purification after his sin with Bathsheba. And so verse 7 is simply a plea for God to clean him.

    Sorry for writing so much, but I hope it helped clear some things up for ya.

    Michael
     
  11. TaterTot

    TaterTot
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    lol, not sure about chickens, but for my old pet bird, its the way he urinates. It all goes out at once, and the urines dries white on top of the poop...if I remember correctly. Now carry on.....:saint:
     
  12. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Snitzelhoff,

    I agree with everything you say about Isa 1 and Psalm 51 (I'll hold off on any debate about the matt 13 parables...)

    Is there any significance to the color of cleansed sin being the same color as leprousy?

    Is there any significance to the cleansed sinner being whiter than the cleansed sin?

    Like I said in the OP, this may be really, really, really random. :cool:
     
  13. DeeJay

    DeeJay
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,916
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think what they are saying is that the color white when used here snow white has no realtion to white being the color of leprousy.

    And leaven represents neither sin or Heaven but rather is a picture of how something spreads. The one characteristic of leaven is how fast it reproduces. I cant find the exact facts right now but yeast cells turn from thousands to millions overnight. So I can use leaven to represent anything that spreads at an amazing speed.

    Example

    "News of the fire spread like leaven thru the little town"

    I am not calling the news or the fire sinfull or good. I am just describing how it spread.
     
  14. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are having trouble with metaphors, this is not a diversion but a lesson in hermeneutics. If you can straighten out this metaphor there is hope for you. Otherwise I do not think you will show the necessary skill to work through conflicting metaphors.

    Actually the leaven in 13 is compared to the kingdom of God not corruption. So there are metaphors that are given that have opposite meaning depending on the context. In most every other instance the leaven is analogous to sin, but not in Matt 13.

    33 He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”

    In a similar way that sin corrupts, the Spirit gives life. Where sin abounds grace abounds more. The kingdom of heaven can be infectious and contagious. The kingdom of heaven is a spiritual kingdom, and the Spirit has a way of working down to the heart of man. The Word of God convicts to the bone. Do you see that this is not an example of sin now?
     
    #14 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Oct 14, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2006
  15. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, I don't. In the verse you quote, why is it three? Why not 2, 12, or someother number? What is a "measure" (I'm asking this because I found 2 different definitions)? And, lastly, what is the significance of the "woman"?
     
  16. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Richard,

    First, there are many places in the Bible where things in our natural world are used to give us faint ideas of spiritual truths. They are not exact pictures, for our physical world is very limited.

    Consider that the robes of the saints in Revelation are white. White is representative of purity most of the time. In leprosy, however, it is representative of rot and lack of color.

    C.S. Lewis presented an interesting note on this in one of his essays. I think it was Weight of Glory, but I can't remember right now. He mentioned that we have just so many physical responses for almost innumerable stimuli. When we get a sudden shock of fear, for instance, our stomachs may lurch. However, when someone sees an incredibly beautiful sunset, or a newborn baby, or hears a beautiful symphony, the physical reaction may be exactly the same -- the stomach may lurch.

    It's not that the lurching feeling represents something which is the same, but that it is the body's reaction each time.

    It is not that the color white always represents the same thing biblically, but that it is being used to describe certain things at certain times, with the presumption that the reader understands.
     
  17. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lesson number one in hermeneutics: do not ask the Bible questions it does not ask of itself.

    The Bible has a specific purpose and it is sufficient to fulfill its stated purpose. You may ask many questions of the Bible that it will not answer for you. Where did the people come from that Cain was banished to live with? That is not the point. The point is that Cain was banished.

    The point is not how many measures because that is pertinent to the physical. This is a parable not a cooking lesson. The point is that the kingdom of God not sin and corruption is being compared to leaven, contrary to what you have claimed earlier. Lastly, why not a woman? A woman in the day of Jesus would have most likely been working in the kitchen making bread. Again the point of whether or not it is a woman has no bearing on the spiritual truth I shared with you about this passage earlier.
     
  18. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    if i wanted to discuss leaven in this thread, the title would look more like this one http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32708 and it would be 13 pages long.

    I think that it was CH Waller that said: God does not waste words. I am not asking you to go outside the Bible to find the answer to my questions. It seems like you're saying that three (in the parable) is arbitrary. it could have been 2 or 12 and the parable would have the same meaning. but Jesus specifically said 3. why 3?

    is it possible, just possible, that Jesus said 3 for a specific reason? Maybe a reason that His audience would understand? His audience that may have included some that were familiar with the Law?

    The Law that specifies how much flour is to be used in the meat (or meal) offering?
     
  19. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    You make a good point. Maybe it's just me, but, you know how some things just leap off the page when you're reading the Bible? i just found it odd that white as snow was used to describe leprous spots (that represent sin) and the cleansed sin. and the cleansed sinner is whiter than snow.
     
  20. rbell

    rbell
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    I saw the "snow white" thread, and it made me grumpy. 'Course, that might be from the cold I have, since I've been sneezy all day. I guess I should see the doc. But anyway, I'm happy to chime in here. This thread has taken a dopey turn. I got sleepy reading some of your responses...but I gotta hand it to ya, some of you sure aren't bashful about saying what you think.
     

Share This Page

Loading...