So called "Christian" liberalism.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Osage Bluestem, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    All sin is rooted in an attitude. The attitude is like this: "I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it and I don't care what God thinks about that."

    That is the general attitude infesting liberal churches. They either bend the scriptures in a vain attempt to make them fit their sinful agenda or they simply claim the scriptures are not true.

    They mold and teach an idea of God after the image of sinful man, instead of accepting the teachings of scripture regarding his holiness, justice, and sovereignty.

    The devil likes to assault the truth. We see his first recorded words are "did God really say" that is the marching tune of liberalism, "did God really say"

    So really "christian" liberalism is grossly influenced by satanism in my view. It is no better than papism, mormonism, or any other cult. All of them hide the truth under a mountain of trash.
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :thumbs::thumbs: Amen! Whatever happened to the gospel of Grace?
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2011
  3. Osage Bluestem

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    I have relative by marriage that is a pastor of an ELCA church. He preaches grace, but it is twisted grace. He is a universalist. He doesn't believe the scriptures are inerrant. His theology (if it can be called that) is an absolute mess. He supports the idea of having gay pastors an pastoretts in open "committed relationships". Just an absolute mess.

    I asked him why the liberal groups haven't gotten together and had a "canon reductionist council" so that they could just cut out all of the stuff none of them liked. He didn't answer. I suppose it's because by the end of the council there would be no scripture left at all.
     
  4. michael-acts17:11

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    The attitude of "I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it and I don't care what God thinks about that" is no less prevalent in legalistic churches; it's just more "acceptable". Scripture refers to those who add their traditions to Scripture as bewitched & vain worshipers. So, those who set a "higher" standard than Scripture for others to live by & saddle them with unscriptural rules are not truly worshiping God.

    Mark 7:7-9 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

    Pharisaic legalism is as destructive to Biblical Christianity as "liberalism". Here's a thought, which one is actually defined & condemned by Scripture? Perhaps we should hate what God hates...self-authoritative legalism. The original sin was that of Satan desiring to sit in the place of God. It is the same within legalistic churches; men desire to set themselves up as the giver of law & judge over God's people. They are going to rule by their own beliefs & traditions and they don't care what God or the Bible have to say about it.
     
    #4 michael-acts17:11, Feb 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2011
  5. glfredrick

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    I'm not quite convinced that "I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it and I don't care what God thinks about that" is the correct descriptor for liberal churches or liberal church activity.

    Rather, it is that liberals have chosen to see all things (as do we all, liberal, conservative, or moderate) through a particular worldview lens. The lenses through which everything, including Scripture, are seen colors what is seen, but the individual doing the looking doesn't always realize just how much they are coloring what they see. They in fact think that they are living according to the dictates of Scripture!

    How can I attempt to stand back and say that? There are several worldview tests that one can make, and it is possible to look at the church/Bible through a biblical/Christian worldview if one applies themselves to the matter and lets Scripture lead rather than follow one''s own views.

    First, does the tenet stand in the harmony with all other teachings on the subject? It has to if it is of God, for God, not God's Word is divided against itself. Jesus told us that in the parable of the strongman divided.

    Second, does the tenet glorify some cause of man or God's cause? In the area of sexual appetites, apart from God's remedy, which is marriage to one woman (or one woman to one man) there is no alternative remedy for the sexual appetite. To do otherwise than marriage, man to woman alone, is to fail God's test. Same goes for every other aspect of doctrine.

    Third, does it bring life, or does it bring death? One can certainly preach death from the pages of Scripture, and doctrines have been written by men that bring death and separation from God instead of life and loving relationship.

    Fourth, is the doctrine or tenet of faith supportable in context by a proper biblical hermeneutic? If we cannot test the Scriptures successfully in this manner, the doctrine is likely liberal and suspect. Proper hermeneutic means exegesis of the actual text of Scripture, going into the original languages if necessary, to speak-forth what it is that God caused to be spoken-forth by the Spirit-led writer, in context, and with recognition of the genre of the text in question. That eliminates the "proof-texting" that is so prevalent in liberal doctrine. A word here or there that matches one's errant doctrine is not "biblical" any more than finding the same word in the dictionary makes it biblical. It has to be used in context and a part of God's overall revelation, not just "there."

    And, finally, does the doctrine in question lead one astray from the common orthodox (small "o") beliefs held by the church at large for 2000 years? If so, it is suspect from the start. We can, and should, be informed by the teachings of the church on any given subject over the centuries -- realizing that the church herself has strayed from time-to-time -- but also realizing that God has corrected His church and brought her back under the light of the true and sure Word.

    All these things in concert will virtually eliminate true liberalism in the doctrines of the church or the church (or believers) in general. Sadly, they are misplaced when one's worldview lens is focused on the accomplishments of the world instead of on God's sure revelation. Science informs us of much, but it cannot trump the Word. Psychiatry informs us of much, but it does not know more about the human psyche than does God. Sexual appetites seem very real, and many have pleaded the cause of "natural" in their expression, but the revealed Word says that there is but one avenue for the expression of human sexual needs -- man and woman, married. Modern views of the rights of women are important in our culture, and they have been good, but they do not inform the Word, which says plainly that women are of equal worth, value, and position as men, but men are the head and women the helpmate. Women are not called "pastors" in the Word. The presupposition is male pastor/leader. Not to say that women have no place in ministry, that would be a lie -- just not the leader of the flock!
     
  6. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    Gentlemen,

    Both valid points. I think the heart of the matter is really the belief in the inerrancy of the bible. If one believes the bible is true and they are commited to following the Lord then they will not encourage the wicked things that liberals do.

    That being said, liberals come from one of two camps, those who do not believe or care, those who do not believe the bible is true.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    I would add this. I know many people who claim to be conservative and believe the bible. However what they draw from what it says is totally different then what it says.
    There is way too many excuses as to why the word of God cannot be obeyed.
     
  8. nodak

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    There is the possibility logically of a third camp of liberals.

    Those who believe the Bible is true, who care, and who understand it differently than the conservative does.
     
  9. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    The reason there is more than one interpretation of scripture is because of sin.
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    Sin is only one possibility.

    It may also involve levels of Christian maturity, discipleship/transformation, understanding, experience, worldview, culture, methods of study and interpretation, and interaction with the text. Differences in personality and spiritual gifts also color what we are likely to extract as "essential" from a text.

    That's why theology and bible study need to be done in the context of a faithful and active community of faith that actually regards Christ as the Master Teacher and intentionally implements His teachings. When the church is active in discipleship and service, the text comes alive in the lives of the member of the church.
     
    #10 Baptist Believer, Feb 18, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  11. mandym

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    I agree. Good post
     
  12. BobinKy

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    [​IMG]



    ...Bob
     
  13. freeatlast

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    I think you are correct, but I would add that for those who are honestly seeking truth, everything you mentioned that hinders proper understanding will disappear as time goes on and as the Spirit opens the mind and heart of the one seeking. On the other hand those who hold an improper understanding because of sin will not be changed so as to understand the truth. Sin does play a very large part in the lives of most in the church today and their false beliefs. So many today have doctrines that override scripture.
     
  14. BobinKy

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    What is your research to support the above statement? Have you polled all of the "liberal" churches to determine the attitude of their clergy and laity?



    [​IMG]



    ...Bob
     
  15. BobinKy

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    ...Bob
     
  16. BobinKy

    BobinKy
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    [​IMG]



    ...Bob
     
  17. Ed B

    Ed B
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    I have several in-laws who are pastors. Each serves a different denomination but with a common Baptist heritage. The Presbyterian-USA pastor took a position as senior pastor of a P-USA Church outside of Chicago. The Elder in charge of the congregation's Sunday School program asked him right away of he wanted them to teach the Bible as figurative or literal. He answered to teach the literal parts as literal and the figurative parts as figurative.

    Conversation ended with a chuckle and a nod from the Elder and was, of course, resumed later.

    Just a small anecdote to illustrate the confusion among well-meaning laity when Church leadership is all over the map on an issue like this.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Liberal churches? Is that like grape nuts?
    They are not grapes, or nuts! Although in a sense they are nuts.
     
  19. Amy.G

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    :laugh::laugh:
     
  20. Crabtownboy

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    That statement is as logical as saying that all conservative/fundamentalists churches are like cactus, all thorns and pain and no comfort. :wavey:
     

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