So Pelagius was a Heretic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 5, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    The name of Pelaguis comes up often in our debates. Would there be any on this list that would take the Word of God, reason, or any other sound evidence and set forth the errors by which he is entitled to such a legacy as being denoted as a heretic?
     
  2. Matt Black

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    So much about Pelagius is difficult to ascertain, largely because we only really have the writings of 'The Other Side' ie: Augustine, rather than what Pelagius himself taught but it seems that he:

    1. Denied Original Sin/ Total Depravity.

    2. Taught that Man could better himself by his own efforts and achieve the perfection which God demands. I find it ironic that there are those on these boards who condemn the Catholic Church for preaching 'salvation by works' when that very Church condemned Pelagius for doing the same!
     
  3. bound

    bound
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    Here's a very interesting link I found. Read it and then we can talk...
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I read it. Talk away. :)
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Pelagianism is the all-comprehensive distinguishing dogma of Roman Catholicism and antichrist.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE
    Pelagius was the (False) Protestant champion of the central doctine of Roman Catholic belief. His indeed is a case in hand of irony!

    But how is it you put Augustine and Pelagius as were they from the same period in time? I assume just per accident; it is a little confusing.
     
  7. Rippon

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    Yes , they were of the same era . Augustine 354-430 ; Pelagius 350-425 ( his chronology is a bit fuzzier than the former ) .
     
  8. Matt Black

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    I suppose I ought to wave the Union Jack at this point and point out that Pelagius was a Brit, but I'd rather not!
     
  9. Melanie

    Melanie
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    ............que!!
     
  10. Matt Black

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    Indeed! The Catholic Councils of Hippo and Orange evidently got it wrong in condemning him...!
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE

    Kick me! I'm fast asleep! I all the time confused Pelagius for Arminius who was in my mind. I don't know how to save face! My apologies!
     
  12. Doubting Thomas

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    No problem--many of us are already used to Calvinists lumping Arminius and Pelagius together (as if they actually taught the same things). :BangHead:
     
  13. bound

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    Grace and Peace,

    There are so many threads which ultimately are dwelling on the same subject that I see not real rationale to pursue this one. Pardon as I bow out of this topic...

    :wavey:
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: This is the only thread that I know of that deals with Pelagius directly. I think in fairness, in light of all the ‘heretic’ comments I have heard concerning him, that someone needs to set forth for the list evidence, using logic and Scripture, why he deserves such a title.

    I have noted several comments of your own that feel were completely unsubstantiated concerning that which you have implied that he believed. Possibly you would be so kind to a deceased brother in the Lord to retract your implications until you have the time to present for the list your personal evidence of them? ..........or should we simply consider your remarks and implications of his beliefs as slander or gossip?:)
     
    #14 Heavenly Pilgrim, Nov 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2007
  15. Rippon

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    Could Pelagius be considered "a brother in the Lord " ?!
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I would certainly consider him a brother in the Lord from all that I have read. Why would you disqualify him from that title? Anything specific?
     
  17. bound

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    If what has been attributed to Pelagius have been done in error, as one might surmise from the website I offered as an alternative view, then truly history has erred and slandered the name of Pelagius.

    But we also must recognize that one website offering evidence uncorroborated by peer evaluation is again unsubstantiated evidence. I would tread cautiously in leaping to unfounded conclusions considering the decision of the Councils.

    That being state, I find in intriguing that material suggests that Pelagius agreed that God's Grace is the aid for man to do good...

    Synod: Let another section be read. [It was then read from his book that] ‘all men are ruled by their own will.’


    Pelagius: This I stated in the interest of free will. God is its helper whenever it chooses good; man, however, when sinning is himself in fault, as under the direction of a free will.


    Synod: Nor again is this opposed to the doctrine of the Church.


    Such hardly strengthens the case of those who would argue an inherent capacity of man to do good...



    Synod: [Pelagius has written in his book that] ‘A man is able, if he likes, to be without sin’ [and in a letter to a certain widow he wrote flatteringly that] ‘In thee piety may find a dwelling-place, such as she finds nowhere else; in thee righteousness, though a stranger, can find a home; truth, which no one any longer recognizes, can discover an abode and a friend in thee; and the law of God, which almost everybody despises, may be honoured by thee alone.’ [Elsewhere in this same letter he wrote] ‘O how happy and blessed art thou, when that righteousness which we must believe to flourish only in heaven has found a shelter on earth only in thy heart!’ [In another work addressed to this same woman Pelagius, after reciting the Lord’s prayer and then proceeding to teach her in what manner saints ought to pray, says] ‘He worthily raises his hands to God, and with a good conscience does he pour out his prayer, who is able to say, “Thou, O Lord, knowest how holy, and harmless, and pure from all injury and iniquity and violence, are the hands which I stretch out to Thee; how righteous, and pure, and free from all deceit, are the lips with which I offer to Thee my supplication, that Thou wouldst have mercy upon me.”’


    Pelagius: We asserted that a man could be without sin, and could keep God's commandments if he wished; for this capacity has been given to him by God. But we never said that any man could be found who at no time whatever, from infancy to old age, had committed sin: but that if any person were converted from his sins, he could by his own labour and God's grace be without sin; and yet not even thus would he be incapable of change ever afterwards. As for the other statements which they have made against us, they are not to be found in our books, nor have we at any time said such things.


    Synod: You have denied having ever written such words; are you therefore ready to anathematize those who do hold these opinions?


    Pelagius: I anathematize them as fools, not as heretics, for there is no dogma.



    Truly I whole heartedly agree with this example of Christian Doctrine of Grace and Free Will in cooperation to do what outside of such assistance is impossible. If this indeed is the opinions of the 'real' Pelagius than I would whole heartedly recant any blemish I have brought to his name.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Never kinder words were spoken. What else could one brother ask of another? :thumbs:
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE

    Yes they did; and some - many - don't realise if they share their beliefs they actually share their faith with Roman Catholicism. Few Protestants know the central issue of the Reformation was free-will versus bondage of the will, or, righteousness by works versus righteousness by faith.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    HP
    " This is the only thread that I know of that deals with Pelagius directly. I think in fairness, in light of all the ‘heretic’ comments I have heard concerning him, that someone needs to set forth for the list evidence, using logic and Scripture, why he deserves such a title. "

    GE

    Here's one 'evidence' - one enough and more than enough: quoting form post above, "if any person were converted from his sins, he could by his own labour and God's grace be without sin"
     

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