So, what is wrong with Lordship salvation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Feb 7, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I saw a comment about Lordship in another post and was curious as to why people find it wrong or even evil.

    I welcome your thoughts, but I certainly encourage the use of Scripture as a reason.
     
  2. Artimaeus

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    I joined in a similar thread a few months ago but didn't get a good handle on it so I would like to see a good definition myself.
     
  3. Daniel David

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    Lordship salvation is the belief that saving faith includes repentance from sin and faith in Christ for salvation.

    This is opposed to the easybelievism of Jack Hyles and others of his kind. They are of the 'say this prayer to be saved' without including the need for repentance. This could also be known as cafeteria salvation. You know, I would like a little of Christ the savior and high priest, but I think I will come back for his lordship if I am not too full.

    Bottom line for a Lordship advocate: no repentance, no salvation.
     
  4. David Mark

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    I think I know the thread you mentioned and I wanted to ask a similar question.

    In Second Corinthians Paul mentioned that when he came to them he set himself to preach only The Christ and him crucified. He added much more as they were able to hear it.

    He wanted them to believe without overwhelming them. He trusted the message and God.

    IMhO, If I believe easily, then I will repent easily. If I lie and say I believe when I really don't then I have not repented, I have only lied and the evidence that I am a liar will be in how I treat others. If I say I love God, but I hate my brother, then I am a liar.
    To me, believing always comes first, repentance follows. That is true in every aspect of the message. Not just that the Christ was crucified but in every other issue.

    If I don't believe that I should love my enemies, then I will never change my mind about it. I must believe it first, then change can come.

    If I don't believe that my worrying cannot help me then I will continue worrying about everything. But if I believe with my heart that my worrying is useless, repentance can come and I might even find the peace I've been longing for.

    And so on and so forth. Pick any other topic.

    If I don't believe I won't repent. If I believe then I can receive repentance. This kind of repentance can save me from all kinds of trouble. So let repentance come Lord! Make me repent! Help me to believe, help me to change.

    I've always believed first, then repentance came. You've got to spend quality time with me to see that I am not lying. Otherwise it's just my word on the matter.

    Repentance is proof to me first, then to you that I believe. Without repentance I lie when I say I believe. God has his own time table and repentance on issues beyond the Christ as Savior can take much time. He is patient and I should be also.
    I see also that if I receive repentance, I received it from God as a gift. I cannot really claim the work as my own. So I have no room for boasting of myself.

    Just thinking...

    Dave.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Personally, there is NO salvation except Lordship salvation.

    Anything less, without repentance or a grip on the holy nature of God, is a sham.

    It became a battleground between strongly reformed baptists (like John MacArthur or John Piper) and the false teaching of arminian baptists (like Jack Hyles or Bob Gray).
     
  6. Pastor_Bob

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    An interesting article I ran across related to this topic:

    In October, I attended the Longview Baptist Temple’s Twenty-Second National Soul-Winning Clinic. Hundreds of preachers were there. The preaching was very good and exalted the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.” The clinics were full of valuable information designed by Dr. Bob Gray to help pastors in their churches.

    The music was free from any contemporary junk. The people of LBT were gracious, kind, and reminded me of the old fashioned Bible believing saints of years gone by. There is an excitement that goes on in churches that put their priorities in the right place according to the Bible.

    Sadly, too many Christians sit back in their “lukewarm” church houses and take pot shots at the soul winning churches. Usually, these churches find some other emphasis on which to base their ministry, or they invent pet doctrines to ride into the sunset of lethargy.

    Since soul winning is the thing the devil hates the most, he fights the hardest against the soul winning churches. He tries to discourage the soul winners from going into the highways and by-ways to reach lost sinners for Christ. He knows his time is short and he wants all the company he can get to go with him into the lake of fire.

    Some preachers point at the soul winning churches and cry: “EASY BELIEVISM.” Many of these accusers must believe in “HARD BELIEVISM.” The accusers say: “you soul winners do not believe in repentance.” (EASY BELIEVISM).

    I can’t speak for all soul winners but I can tell you this: the soul winners that I know do believe in repentance as a part of salvation. They believe in Bible repentance not “HARD BELIEVISM.”

    A number of times, I have heard Dr. Bob Gray say, “NO CONVICTION, NO CONVERSION.” This recognizes the Holy Spirit as the person who convicts the sinner through the presentation of the word of God. The power is in the gospel as it is presented by the soul winner. (Romans 1:16) The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of his lost, ungodly condition and he turns his heart from his evil self, toward God, by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. “Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Acts 20:21)

    This is not a gradual process of repenting of all of one’s sins. It is instantaneous when the sword of the Spirit sticks the lost sinner in the gizzard of depravity. As a free moral agent, with a free will, he can say, “yes I will trust Christ” and be saved or “no I will not trust Christ” and go on his way to hell.

    “HARD BELIEVISM” invents ways to stay away from soul winning and the great commission. (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8) Some churches go into the so-called deeper life movement. These folks pride themselves as being so “spirit led” that they would not dare witness to some poor lost sinner. After all, they might be doing it “in the flesh” and that would be tragic! A bunch of Pharisees is what they are.

    Every once in awhile, we hear of some preacher who “gets saved” after being in the ministry for twenty years or so. He thought he got saved at a revival meeting when he was six or seven years old. Then some limited atonement preacher comes along and tells him, “if Christ is not Lord of all He is not Lord at all!”

    The victim thinks, “oh, my heavens, I can’t remember if I trusted Him only as Saviour or if I trusted Him as Lord and Saviour.” “I must not be saved.??” “I’m not sure if I repented or not.” Then some night while he is preaching one of his red-hot messages on the blood of Christ, as he has done for twenty years, he gets doubts about his salvation goes to the altar then gets up and tells his congregation, “I just got saved!” Then the guy goes on preaching just like he has been for twenty years. (something smells kind of fishy)

    This is an example of “HARD BELIEVISM.” This is the result of Calvin’s false doctrines, particularly the “perseverance of the saints” which he got from Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” The idea is, if the convert ever “back slides” after his conversion, he never really REPENTED and was not really saved.

    He did not “endure to the end.” Of course, the heretic espousing this false doctrine doesn’t know, or care, that the verse applies to someone in the Tribulation and not in the church age. He hasn’t checked out the context and run the references in the book of Daniel on “the end.”

    “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” (Mat 24:14)

    The gospel of the kingdom is preached in the Tribulation. (Daniel’s seventieth week.) The gospel of Christ and the gospel of the grace of God, that Paul called “my gospel,” is the gospel preached in the church age. (Acts 20:24; Romans 1:16; 2:16) We are not “enduring unto the end” to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith and kept by the power of God. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:5)

    Advocates of “HARD BELIEVISM” mix grace and works by saying the lost person must repent of all his sins (works) and then he can believe on Christ and be saved.

    Calvin’s TULIP theology teaches that the sinner cannot believe on Christ until God zaps him with irresistible grace at the predestined time. Thus he can only believe AFTER he is born again! The sinner’s WILL has nothing to do with it since he was “CHOSEN” unconditionally by God before the foundation of the world. Having been elected to be saved, he is the recipient of limited atonement, which means that Christ died ONLY for him and the other lucky “electees.”

    Everybody else in Calvin’s scheme is doomed and could not be saved even if they heard the gospel. I guess the gospel has less power to save than Paul thought! “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16)

    Limited atonement is a despicable doctrine! This false doctrine was hatched by misinterpreted verses and building on a faulty foundation. When Calvin came up with his “unconditional election theory, he surmised it was not necessary for Jesus to die for the non-elected. (reprobates). This makes Christ’s atonement limited only to the elect. However, such an atrocity breaks in and out of Adam’s bloodline selectively saving some and not others. This, of course, is nonsense and failure to believe the Bible.

    EXAMPLE: “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1)

    The Lord “BOUGHT” unsaved false prophets and false teachers!

    “All we like sheep have gone astray;(Calvin says Amen: total depravity) we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (oops!) (Isaiah 53:6)

    TULIP sniffers agree to make the first “all” pertain to everyone in Adam’s race. But they have to make the second “all” pertain only to “the elect.” This is cruddy exegesis for pseudo-scholars who claim to have a superior grasp of the scriptures. J

    Five point calvinism is just another form of “HARD BELIEVISM” and is designed to excuse a bunch of lazy preachers from going soul winning. It is disobedience to the Lord’s command to His church: “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15) TULIP theology is an insult to the great commission.

    Why bother going and telling lost sinners the good news if the predestined elect are going to be saved anyway, since they have no choice in the matter? The truth is: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

    “EASY BELIEVISM” is a term used to identify the “one, two, three pray after me” type of “soul winning.” There is, no doubt, that kind of salesmanship that goes on in the name of soul winning. This is wrong and shows a lack of Holy Spirit leadership on the part of the soul winner. NO CONVICTION, NO CONVERSION.

    However, I do not believe Christ died on the cross for everyone and then said: “I paid the price but I am going to make it HARD (difficult) for you to BELIEVE and get saved.” The Bible teaches it is easy to get saved.

    There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:6-7)

    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30-31)

    It is our duty to GO AND TELL. It is God’s duty to convict and save.

    He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him. (Psalms 126:6)

    By CHARLES PERKINS, Pastor
    CLAIREMONT BIBLE BAPTIST CHURCH
    3410 MT. ACADIA BLVD.
    SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA 92111
     
  7. PackerBacker

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    I'll agree with the smelling fishy comment. That example of the pastor smells real fishy! What was the pastor trusting in to begin with if he had to go to an altar and "get saved" again? Rather than toss mud on Lordship, the story shows the terrible problem with Decisionalism. Rather than salvation being based on the finished work of Christ it becomes based on making the proper decision with the proper lingo. When new lingo is presented, doubt arises and another decision is made. How sad that after 20 years of preaching on the blood of Christ this man's assurance was based on what terminology he used in his decision.
     
  8. paul hadik

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    Daniel:

    how many times have you heard a testimony from a young person like this "I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 7. At the age of 13 I dedicated myself to the Lord."

    Well, what was going on between 7 and 13?

    Lordship salvation isn't an attempt to denigrate soul-winning. What it is trying to do is define what salvation is. For too many years salvation was taught as a decision one makes for Christ, usually through praying a prayer or walking an aisle and by DOING this thing a person was saved regardless of whether there was any fruit or not in their life. Sadly the Bible got boiled down from "just study the New Testament" to "Learn the Romans Road" to "Read Romans 10" to "the ABC's of salvation" until we can now "win" a soul for Jesus in 2 minutes just add the water of the Spirit.
    LS views salvation as totally a work of God, from beginning to end, therefore, there should be an obvious change with Spirit bred fruit in the life of a believer.

    paul
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Dr Bob - I admire your courage in being so clear. I do beelive that "faith works" and where there are no works there is no real faith. This is not new - John Bunyun had a real grasp on it 350 years ago. If anyine doubts that read the section where Christian and Faithful discourse with Talkative in Pilgrims Progress .
     
  10. Kiffin

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    Amen! [​IMG] The problem with most Non Lorshippers is the total lack of emphasis on sanctification. They focus totaly on Justification and Sanctification is viewed as almost irrelevant. If there however is Justification there will also be Sanctification.
     
  11. IfbReformer

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    Dr. Bob,

    You and I agree on so many things that it is a shame when I have to disagree with you.

    Dr. Bob, David Daniel, and many of us regulars have had this discussion many times now. But for those of you new to the discussion here is the jist.

    There is the Free Grace position(lovingly called by Lordship proponents "Cheap Grace") which is held by great men of God such as Charles Ryrie and Warren Wiresbe.

    This position holds that salvation is the free gift of God, not a gift exchange as Lordship proponents propose.

    We do not believe obedience is optional as we are accused of by Lordship proponents. We simply believe that our level of obedience after salvation does not maintain, or prove our salvation.

    Some Christian will be great and faithful disciples, and others not ceasing on the opportunities presented by Christ to overcome sin and serve him, will be bad disciples. But both are disciples. Lordship advocates believe their is no such thing as a bad disciple, we believe, that however unfortunate this case is, there is the possiblily for their to be bad disciples.

    Listen to MacArthur's view on this:
    "Salvation by faith does not eliminate works per se. It does away with works that are the result of human effort alone"
    ("The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacArthur page 39)

    Sounds like some Catholic Apologists I have read that say works are a part of salvation and that God gives us the "grace" to perform them.

    "With eternal life comes immediate death to self...That was what Jesus meant when he spoke of taking up one's own cross to follow him. And that is why he demanded that we count the cost carefully. He was calling for an exchange of all that we are for all that he is. He was demanding implicit obedience unconditional surrender to his lordship."
    ("The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacArthur page 147)

    Sorry Mr. MacArthur, Salvation is not an exchange of commodities(us for Christ) - he offers himself freely at no charge. In fact if we work for something, or in exchange for something, it cannot any longer be consider a gift, but an obligation as the scriptures teach:

    However unfortunate it may be, there will be some who "will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."(1 Corinthians 3:16)

    I suggest to anyone new to this topic that you look over three articles I wrote on this subject of assurance of salvation:

    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_What_Is_The_Gospel.aspx

    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_Positions.aspx

    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_MacArthur.aspx

    Being saved cost God his one and only Son, the most precious thing to him, but the beauty is it costs us nothing - it is the free gift of God. Being Christlike however, and serving Christ with our being, could cost us everything, even to the point of death.

    IFBReformer
     
  12. IfbReformer

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    I just wanted to add in something I forgot to mention.

    I do not agree with Hyles because of his methods. He makes soul-winning look like selling cars. We are not to force people into it, we are only to present it and let God do his work.

    Hyles advocates have this "lets close the deal" mentality. They are completely wrong in their approach. They also don't seem to place the emphasis on discipleship which we free grace advocates do believe in. We just don't think the quality of one's discipleship after salvation determines if he is truly saved or not.

    Like I said, for Lordship advocates there is no such thing as a bad discpiple, but only ranges of good disciples.

    IFBReformer
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    Let me clarify with a real world example of what Daniel David means by "repentance" - for both Lordship and Free Grace advocates believe in repentance unto salvation,but we define it differently. Because we define it differently, they accuse of of saying there is no need for repentance.

    Lets take a young student on a college campus for example:

    Lets say I am witnessing to him and I find out he is living with a female student there. I will present to him that he is a sinner and has violate God's commands and one of those is not to commit fornication. If he acknowledges his sin before God and accepts Christ as Savior and Lord(God) he is saved and I will tell him such.

    I will also tell him at the same time that God can give him the freedom from his sin, and that God will only bless him when his stops living in this sin with this women. But I will not tell him he must stop sinning(stop living with this women) before Christ will accept him. In fact I will tell him that he can do nothing in his own power until he comes to faith in Christ.

    I would also add that he will not be able to grow as he should and become a member of a local Bible believing church until he stops this sin of fornication.

    The Lordship advocate on the other hand, would tell this student that Christ will not accept him until he gives up this sin. If he says he does not know how, or that he just can't, then he proves his unwillingness to surrender to Christ.

    I have seen many people in this situation come to Christ and not be willing to leave the person they are living with, and then only a few months later after discipleship and them attending church they seperate or get married.

    The Lordship advocates position adds something to salvation that God did not add. We cannot clean ourselves up,that why God made a way for us through his son. Certainly Christ empowers us and gives us opportunity to do right, but we still must choose and we do not always make the right choices.

    IFBReformer
     
  14. Kiffin

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    Actually his view has nothing at all to do with Catholic Apologists but is actually the historic Baptist viewpoint. He is clear that It does away with works that are the result of human effort alone One Works not because of human effort but because they are converted. We are saved by Faith Alone in Christ but that Faith produces works is MacArthur's meaning. A Roman Catholic would say our works cooperates with our faith to save us while Calvinists like MacArthur believe works are a result of faith. Big differance!

    Once again there is a failure to understand what Calvinists are stating. It is putting your own spin on what you think he is saying. MacArthur like all Calvinists believes Regeneration produces faith and repentance. That involves turning away from our old lives and a complete turning to Christ.

    To reject Lordship salvation actually is to reject the historic Baptist position and instead to accept the modern easy believism Baptist position of Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley and Curtis Hudson.

     
  15. C.S. Murphy

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  16. russell55

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    I will agree with you that we are not sinless now. But we are more than just forgiven. We have become "new men". What does it mean to be a new man? Doesn't being a different sort or man show up in our actions in some way?
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    I will agree with you that we are not sinless now. But we are more than just forgiven. We have become "new men". What does it mean to be a new man? Doesn't being a different sort or man show up in our actions in some way? </font>[/QUOTE]russell55,

    I and other Free Grace advocates agree that when we are saved we have a new nature placed in us through the Holy Spirit. But the old nature remains as well as Romans 7 tells us. Certainly there will be some fruit and some change in the life of a truly saved person.

    The question is how much? and how visible? This is really the crux between the two camps. Lordship advocates(at least ones I have known in person) seem to be watching people looking for a laundry list of things they would like to see a new convert. If they don't see them, they write the person off as not being saved. Thats what is wrong.

    Lets not forget that when God places the new nature in us, he does not eradicate the old nature as some have falsely taught. We still struggle and yes, yield to our sinful nature at times.

    Some Christians very rarely yield to their sinful nature, while others do it all the time. Is God please with these carnal Christians? Of course not. But our works do not save us, and sometimes there might not even be enough works for some Lordship advocates to believe someone is saved. I leave it in God's hands. I believe we ought to discipline people, not doubt their salvation.

    I was listening to John MacArthur's radio program this morning as is my habbit almost every day. I heard him giving his testimony to someone who was interviewing him. I found it fascinating that he said he can't point to exact time when he was saved. He was the son of Pastor and said he just always had trusted Christ as his Savior and never had rebelled against the things of God.

    I don't doubt his salvation, but it just strike a cord in me that I had sensed about MacArthur for a long time. I believe he understands what sin and knows he is a sinner, but has he ever been really confronted a sin in his life and so desperately needed God's forgiveness.

    Until we have experianced God's forgiveness in a real life fashion, it is easy to take a Lordship position.

    In fact mostly growing up I probably would have subscribed to the Lordship position without knowing what it was. I was raised in a good Christian Family, went to a IFB church every service.

    I accepted Christ when I was 7 years old. I can't remember a time when I did not accept Christ. I just always trusted him and always believed he was the only way.

    I used to think I was good church boy, I knew I did some bad things like lying sometimes. But I never really understood what forgiveness was until I was a young adult and got away from the Lord for awhile and did some things I am not proud of.

    When I asked God for forgiveness and received it, For the first time in my life I really- really understood what it meant to be forgiven. And this was years after I was saved.

    I understood the real potential for sin in my own life, even as a believer. From that moment on I began to see none of us are perfect, and to be careful of saying that no Christian could live this way or that, or do this or that. Why? Because I have been there. I began to see in the scriptures that the forgiveness of God not only extends to those who are unsaved and come to Christ, it continues for those of us who have been in Christ for many years.

    What if I had not asked God's forgiveness, or what if wanted it but could not give up my sin? Would I have proven I was never really saved? In the Lordship advocates opinion they would have to say yes!

    But thanks be to God my salvation does not rest in their hands, but in the hands of a infinitely loving and merciful God, he brought me to salvation, and he will keep me until I die. Even if I die in a backslidden state.

    IFBReformer
     
  18. Kiffin

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    I think it is deeper than that. I have read where Curtis Hudson and Charles Stanley have basically stated that a Christian can either never show any obedience in their entire life in following Christ or abandoning Jesus all together. That teaches Cheap grace not Free grace and dismisses sanctification all together.


    The exact time, or the exact details of one's conversion is not the Biblical way to get assurance and is the poorest way since it relies on emotions and one might be deceived by such dependance. The Bible never asks us to look back and base our assurance of Salvation on a conversion experience. Certaintly you must have a Conversion experience BUT The Bible writers do not ask, did you have faith in Christ when you walked down to the front of the church 20-40 years ago? A common theme of New Testament teaching is Are you Trusting Christ as Your Lord and Savior NOW since a so called conversion experience that does not produce a living faith is irrelevant. A living Faith is Bible faith!

    In our churches today we visit people on their death beds who have not darknened a Church door in 50 years, they have lived immoraliy in adultery, fornication and think nothing of spiritual matters. Ask them if they are going to Heaven however, they will say yes. Why will they say yes? Because when they were 9 years old they said the Sinners Prayer and asked Jesus to save them. (At least that is what they think) Their faith is in a experience back 50 years ago but since that experience they have had no fruit and lived anyway they felt but they have assurance of Heaven. It however is a false assurance.
     
  19. Kiffin

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    I really appreciate your testimony and humility but actually you make a great argument for Lord Ship Salvation. Lordship Salvation does not teach we cannot fall or stumble after conversion but that God will bring us back into line. That is what God did with you and showed His providential care through the Holy Spirit on your life in that He would not allow You to continue on the wrong path.

    It actually is the wrong question. The fact is YOU DID ask God's forgiveness because of the Holy Spirit's indwelling of you. A unconverted person would have cared less about living wrongly. They Holy Spirit will not let Christians apostazize but will bring us back though we may stumble for awhile.
     
  20. paul hadik

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    IB Reformer:

    There has risen another "crux" besides your well-stated position on the believer's life after salvation. And that is witnessing. Maybe out here in the field I have seen more of the danger of non-LS I don't know. But when one divorces grace from justification (and I see that you don't)things get eternally dangerous.
    There is a Bible College in the Pacific that brings in students from all over. IT starts the new year with evangelistic services at which a huge percentage of students accept Jesus. At the end of 3 years the students return home trained to be pastors or Bible club teachers etc, but for the most part are never seen or heard from again. They are then typified as backslidden. Attempts at questioning whether they were ever saved have been met with harsh rebuke by those who hate to question their foundational teachings.
    The crux has become "is one saved by merely asking Jesus into one's heart"?

    Considering the eternality of the issue it needs to be seriously searched out.
     

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