So, what is wrong with Lordship salvation?

I've seen this too and it's too bad. We don't change everything about us the moment we are saved, some changes come more slowly. Our sin is forgiven, but the inclination to sin is still there, as you said the old man remains. This is in my opinion a judgment of the work of God. The work that only God can do. 1John 1:9 is written to Christan's, and it doesn't say if we sin, but when we sin, we will never stop sinning till death. And before someone jumps on it, this is not an excuse for sin, but a fact it is still going to exist. I think the difference is the Christian will desire not to sin, the unsaved won't care.
We can never know whats going on in a persons heart.

I believe Jesus must be our Lord, this is not a test of salvation though. Jesus being Lord to me means I will seek to obey His word, though I will not always be successful. It is my desire to bring all of me under subjection to Him.

These are just my thoughts and don't have to mean anything to anyone else. Nor are they all inclusive of my total thoughts on the topic.

 

I am about half way through "Hard to Believe" by MacArthur. He doesn't teach this concept in that book. What he does teach is that one must be willing to give up everything to include his own family. He acknowledges that this is a new direction of life rather than a sudden appearance of moral perfection.

What LS advocate thinks we can clean ourselves up? All I have known give complete credit from predestination to ultimate glorification to God.

Let me give you a quick illustration.

In the same way, genuine belief in Christ as Savior will result in a change in direction. I believe someone can fail significantly after being truly saved... but the direction of a person's life will change and they will not stay in sin.

 

I have an almost identical testimony to yours. I thank God that He insisted on being my Lord because He was my Savior... Otherwise, I would have undoubtedly continued in the destructive spiral of sin.

 

Heres one thats not a myth - and please correct me if I am wrong.

Lordship Advocates believe it is impossible for a Christian to die in a backslidden state.

Although they might have problems with passages like this then:

What about Ananias and Sapphira(Acts 5)? They were Christians who lied to God publicly and God took them home.

What about the Corinthians who fell asleep (died) because they abused the Lord's Supper(1 Cor 11)?

These were Christians who died in a backslidden state.

What about those Christians that "will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames" as Paul tell us.
(1 Corinthians 3:15)

The description in the passage is of a Christian who builds his foundation on Christ(is saved) but does not build properly on it,he will still be saved, but only by fire.

IFBReformer

 

Scott,

Just wanted to zoom in on this statement of yours:

"What LS advocate thinks we can clean ourselves up? All I have known give complete credit from predestination to ultimate glorification to God."

This brings up a good point I forgot about as well. Many Lordship advocates have said to me that they believe Christ does the cleaning up. Regardless though, the believe the cleaning up must take place. Then they throw out this strawman argument or question "Don't you believe God can clean up those he truly saves?"

To that I simply answer, God could have made us all superman and bullet proof, God can do anything he wants. The question is not what God can do, or what we think he should do, but what he does do.

I refuse take a laundry list of items and look at someone who I believe made a genuine heart felt profession of faith and say that person is not saved because they have not fulfilled the requirements on my list.

Jesus said all the work that was required to be saved in John 6:

John 6:28-29(NIV)
"28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

God's gift in salvation is not "cheap grace" its "free grace" - praise God.

IFBReformer

 

Kiffin,

Your statement:
"It actually is the wrong question. The fact is YOU DID ask God's forgiveness because of the Holy Spirit's indwelling of you. A unconverted person would have cared less about living wrongly. They Holy Spirit will not let Christians apostazize but will bring us back though we may stumble for awhile."

It is one thing to apostazize(this is to deny Christ as Savior) and it is quiet another for a Christian to fall into sin. This is actually one thing I disagree with Hodges and Ryrie on. I believe our faith and trust in Christ is something we can never truly loose in our heart. We may deny Christ in a moment of fear as Peter did, or we may sin or fall into a sinful lifestyle but we can never loose that belief because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I believe that is it very possible for a person who is truly saved to fall into sin and never come out of it before they die. I also believe this person will be miserable because they know what is right like I did. But they may not repent in time before they die, and I will not, nor do the scriptures warrant that I right them off as an unbeliever.

The persaverance spoken of in the Bible, and the endurance to the end spoken of in the Bible, refers to the belief that God stamps on the heart of every child who is his. It does not mean that they will continue in righteous living their whole life and cannot die in a state of backsliddeness.

IFBReformer

 

Here is another observation of the Lordship movement:

I have met many good men of God(on this forum and off it) that believe in the LS position.

I think where they have gone wrong is in taking up an offense for God. They are upset at Christians not living up to their potential. They are upset at Christians in churches not serving as they should.

They think to themselves, how could anyone not live as I do for the Lord after he has done so much for me and them?

Then they come to this conclusion - "they can't be Christians" and they write off all these people they are upset at as unsaved.

But God does not need us to take up an offense for him, he knows who are his, we do not always know that. I do not claim that every person who professes the name of Christ is truly a believer. But if they do claim Christ as their savior, I cannot take out my laundry list and go down it to determine if I as a man can tell if they are saved.

Lordship advocates don't want to leave these things in the Lord's hands, they want to pass judgment here and now - but like I said, God knows who are his.

Yes we need to discipline people who are members of churches and claim Christ and live in open sin. Yes it is a privaledge to serve in the church, and only those who are faithful should be allowed to serve. But we have not Biblical warrant to right off these same people that we discipline as unsaved - only God knows that.

IFBReformer

 

Kiffen,

Your statement:
"1. No one here is saying Believers must reach sinless perfection. That is a ridiculous accusation that has been refuted again and again.

2. No one here is saying that have arrived as a believer. LS salvation teaches that we never truly arrive until glorification."

You are right Kiffen that LS don't teach sinless perfection. I would say it is more like you teach 'almost sinless perfection'. Because as John MacArthur says you can have "moments" of failure - but failure could never be the pattern of a true believers life in his estimation.

What then does he do with Solomon? Solomon lived a very immoral life and he was a believer, yes it seems that he repented at the end, but certainly his was life was not a "pattern" of righteous living.

IFBReformer

 

IFBReformer,

Once again I appreciate the tone of your arguments and your view is much more balanced than that of Ryrie and others. You are correct there is a differance between apostazize(this is to deny Christ as Savior) and it is quiet another for a Christian to fall into sin. The Key Teaching is that Believers will manifest fruit and that a sinful, godless lifestyle will not be the pattern of a believer. I believe any of us could fall into sin but I also believe because of the Grace of God and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we will return back to the right way.

Well, I will be away fror 2 weeks on vacation, so ya'll can pound on me now.

 

Here is another way to look at how the differing views see the issues regarding the security of the believer's salvation.

If a person professed faith in Christ but does not pursue a righteous life after that here is how it is explained by the various schools of thought:

Catholic:
The person will not be saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Means of Salvation and Lordship Salvation Views:
The person was never saved.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Salvation View(Arminian, Holiness, Charismatic):
The person was saved and lost their salvation.
END RESULT: The person goes to hell.

Loss of Rewards, Eternal Security, Free Grace or as its opponents lovingly call it "Easybelievism" View:
The person may still be saved and they have chosen to reject the prodding of the Holy Spirit and waste their life. They loose the rewards they could have had.
END RESULT:The person goes to heaven

So really no matter how you spin it, there are really only two sides of this debate, they just explain things differently, but there are only two end results here.

IFBReformer

 

IFB,

Let mev respond before my 2 week exile from here.

You stated,

Incorrect. MacArthur admits that believers can and will have sinful habits though we must be carefull in using MacArthur only for LS salvation and would be better to use Baptist and Reformed Confessions (1s and Second London Baptist, New Hampshire Confession, Westminister). LS Salvation advocates believe that we all commit sins everyday and will until we die because of our unredeemed flesh. Sinless perfection view is a Holiness Arminian Wesleyan View.

Good Question. It might be debated whether his life was or was not a "pattern" of righteous living. Solomon did many good things and many evil things and many believe Ecclesiates is his repentance. It is I believe however dangerous to use Old Testament saints in the Lordship Debate simply because they lacked the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which all New Testament saints have.

 

Good Question. It might be debated whether his life was or was not a "pattern" of righteous living. Solomon did many good things and many evil things and many believe Ecclesiates is his repentance. </font>[/QUOTE]Solomon while an OT saint is a very good picture of a sinner saved by grace. Thankfully God does not weigh our good deeds against our bad. Sadly some men seem to do so. Kiffen I am sorry if I am not paying close enough attention to your posting, I am a little slow maybe try typing slower. I may be wrong but I still sense some boasting here.
Murph

 

Daniel,

This is a good question, how would I as a Free Grace proponent help this person who is doubting their salvation?

I would ask them why? I would ask them if they have and are placing their faith and trust in Christ as their savior. If they answer that they have and are, but are worried that because of a repetitous sin in their life that God will not save them or they are not saved I would tell them thats not true.

You see Daniel, most people I have ran into in my life who doubt their salvation doubt it because they have a sin, or couple of sins they have never had victory over. While LS advocates will tell the person they probably were never saved, I will tell them if I think they understand the Gospel and have accepted Christ that they are saved but have not totally given that sin to the Lord. They need his power to overcome it, and they have to stop trying to do things in their own power.

I would tell them that they need to continue to confess their sin before God, and lean on his power and strength to overcome it. Some people have been given the wrong idea that unless you think you have totally kicked whatever you sin is, its useless to confess and ask forgiveness because God won't forgive you. Thats is a lie from the pit of hell.

I would never tell a person not to worry about their sin. But the reasons are different than yours. My reason for them to worry about their sin is that God will discipline them eventually. That is the negative reason, the postive reason is that they are missing out on the joy they can have in this life, before the next, if they would only give their sin to the Lord.

You say you would tell a person who is doubting their salvation to "Repent and trust Christ. Don't deceive yourself into hell." You sound almost word for word with a charismatic preacher I used to work with. If you don't have you sins confessed and forgiven on a daily basis - you go to hell. Certainly you will try an explain it differently than he does, but as I said in an earlier post, the end result is the same.

Why would someone who has trusted Christ as Lord and Savior, even one who is dealing with a repetitive sin in their life, have to repent as to go to hell? Have they not passed(past tense) from death to life as the scriptures say? Isn't their no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus? Or is their still the possibility?

Daniel, I understand your heart, and I know you are not teaching sinless perfection. Yet the Means Group(you) and the LS group have effectively shattered the doctrine of assurance of salvation.

Here is the problem, you base our assurance of salvation on subjective things like how we behave after salvation and on the objective truth that Christ is our guarentee and will keep us to the end. The problem is, no matter how Schreiner says, the two don't mix.

Your house can't be built on the rock and the sand, if part of the house(assurance) is built on the rock(Christ), and part of the house(assurance) is built on the sand(subjective behavior) then the house will not stand. It must be all the rock or their is no assurance.

IFBReformer