So Who Died?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Deacon, Apr 24, 2009.

  1. Deacon

    Deacon
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    I’m having problems following Paul’s argument in Romans 7.

    Who do we identify with in this verse?
    Who died?

    Thus a married woman is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.

    Romans 7:2 NRSV

    Paul continues the argument and in verse 4 he writes:

    In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
    Romans 7:4 NRSV

    So who died here?
    ... and who do we identify with in this verse?

    How does the first example apply to the conclusion?

    Rob
     
  2. Me4Him

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    To understand this you first have to understand "chastisement".

    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (wicked people)

    God uses "men" as a "ROD" to "chastise" his own, since only his own are chastised.

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/Authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

    The "Assyrian", "Nebuchadnezzar", "Rome" have all been used as a "Rod" to chastise Israel,

    The coming Antichrist, given power/authority over all "FLESH" is also a "ROD".

    Israel rejected the invitation to the "lamb's marriage supper", so they are not "Raptured", but left behind.

    For those who are raptured, Jesus has already suffer their "Chastisement" with his body, and the church is viewed as "his body",

    however as "Chastisement" for rejecting Jesus, God allows the AC to beat/torture/kill Israel as Jesus was beat/tortured/killed, (stripes in the flesh)

    Jesus ask the question, "can you drink of the cup I drink of"???

    Since Jesus has already suffered our chastisement, we "Spiritually" crucify the "body of sin", however Israel will "LITERALLY" crucify the body of sin to drink of the same cup Jesus drank,

    In other words, to be married to Jesus, they will have to literally crucify the "body of sin", because if they confess Jesus, the AC will kill them.

    Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

    Under the law, a "woman" (Israel) can't be married to another as long as her husband lives, if he, or she, is dead, the other is free to marry.


    But when you're saved, you're a "NEW CREATURE", the old man/woman is "DEAD", now you're free to marry another.

    Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    God was married to Israel, the "woman" (Mother) who gave birth to the "man child". (Jesus)

    Israel as the "wife of God/Mother of Jesus" can not be married to Jesus, her son,

    This is why Israel must be "Born again", or a "new Creature" to be the "bride of Christ".

    1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    God, using Satan/AC as a "ROD", deliver Israel into Satan's hands for the destruction of their "FLESH" as "Chastisement" that they might be married to another, "Jesus".

    Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.


    Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

    Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

    You might want to study a little deeper on this principle of chastisement with the rod.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    Paul seems to be speaking of saints (Christians) who have symbolically died with Christ, and are therefore free from the requirements of the law and the resulting enslavement to sin and death.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. OldRegular

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    One thing is certain. The Scripture in the OP have nothing to do with eschatology.

    The KJV translates these verses as follows:

    2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

    The above Scripture means just what it says.

    4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    In the above passage the Apostle is simply saying that the "true believer", the Saint is dead to the law. The believer has been delivered from the law of sin and death. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law for every believer.

    Note Romans 7:6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

    and Romans 8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    That being said I believe that the Saints are still obligated to keep the moral law.
     
  5. EdSutton

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    Say WHAT?

    I got dizzy just trying to follow this post through all the turns and twists, that could make a narrow mountain road look like an Interstate highway.

    Regardless of whatever you are driving at, these verses you have picked out, apparently at random, have absolutely nothing to do with the examples of being "dead to the law" and "dead through the law" in Rom. 7, which are referring, in the close context of the the Scriptures before and after, of the Christian's relation to the Mosaic law.

    Ed
     
    #5 EdSutton, Apr 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2009
  6. Trotter

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    We died, or rather our flesh died/is dying, when we were saved. Until that point in time, we were slaves to the flesh and its desires. Once we turned from our sins and accepted Christ, the old man, the flesh, died, leaving us free from the law of the flesh.

    As Jesus said, no man can serve two masters. Anyone who tries to live in the flesh and in Christ will end up hating one and loving the other. Our very nature resists the law of God in favor of the law of the flesh. This is illustrated here with the marriage of a husband and wife that is binding until death; the woman is not free until her husband has died. In the same way, we are not free from the law of the flesh until it, too, has died.

    When we move from the flesh into Christ, the flesh must die. This frees us from the bondage we were under to serve our new Master. Unless the flesh is dead, we are just committing spiritual harlotry with Christ.

    I hope that makes sense and was what you were asking. That's what it seemed like to me, anyway.
     
  7. Me4Him

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    OK, so it went over your head. :laugh:

    But let me explain something about scripture that few seems to know.

    No doctrine stands along, like a "piece of a puzzle" it combines with other doctrines to complete/explain the "whole picture".

    If you'll read that again, you'll see that I combined several different doctrines to explain the Tribulations.
     
  8. HankD

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    Moses died (sin and death).
    We identified with Moses representing the law because we were dead in trespasses and sins.

    Christ is alive forevermore (grace and eternal life).
    We now identify with Christ representing grace and the resurrection from the dead, we also shall be made alive and raised as His Bride.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    HankD
     
  9. EdSutton

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    So??

    In the vein of the post of OldRegular, what does this have particularly to do with the OP? :BangHead:

    But thanks anyway, for your attempt to enlighten the rest of us about something else entirely, since apparently you think most of us do not "seems [sic] to know" a great deal about Scripture, apparently. :rolleyes:

    FTR, in the area of Biblical eschatology, the Tribulation is a singular word, not plural. :tonofbricks:

    Ed
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Here you go: The point is not about who died. It's about what death does to a relationship.
     
  11. Deacon

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    Yep, that's my conclusion too.
    It's not a perfect analogy; it's just a simple illustration of how things change when a death is occurs.

    Thanks everyone.

    Rob
     
  12. Me4Him

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    I was trying to point out one of the difference between the church and Israel,

    How many people today would still want to be saved knowing their "body of sin" was going to be beat/crucify/killed as Jesus was??

    Drinking of Jesus's cup/crucifying the body of sin/dead to the law, takes on a whole new meaning during the trib.

    And I was trying to explain dead to the law within "context" of the trib, since you didn't understand, obviously, you have a few things left to learn.


    I have a poster on another board who doesn't know enough about scripture to have an intelligent debate, so his major complaint is with my spelling/typing,

    To me, that's like:

    Mt 23:24 which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
     
  13. EdSutton

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    I believe I understand at least a few of the differences between the church and Israel, FTR. :rolleyes:

    Also, I will be the first to also admit I have many things left to learn. However, those are not particularly germane to the points I was making.

    I'm just not sure that the Christian believer, in the age of grace, who is "not under (the) law" (Rom. 6:14,15; ), is "dead to the law" (Rom. 7:4), is "dead through the law (Gal. 2:19), is "delivered from the law" (Rom. 7:6); who has been "released (loosed -KJV) from the law" (by extension-Rom.7:2); is "free from the law" (Rom. 7:3; 8:2); and is not now, nor has ever been "under (the) law" [Rom. 3:19; 6:14,15; Gal. 4:12 (although many apparently desire to be under the law" here, which desire astounds me, in and of itself); 5:18] and none of whom, from what I'm able to ascertain from Scripture, will have to go through either "the Tribulation" (Mt. 24:29) ,or especially not "the Great Tribulation" (Rev. 7:14) which is the future time of testing for Israel or "Jacob" (Jer. 30:7) is properly said to be indentified with this future time, in any manner.

    The church can and will suffer tribulations, to be sure (Ac. 20:23; Rom. 5:3; II Cor. 6:4; II Thes. 1:4), but does not go "through the Tribulation" which makes it another matter, and why I made the distinction (as does both the KJV and NKJV, between the singular and plural use of the word.

    BTW, I was not commenting on either your typing or spelling, here, but simply noting the distinction between the uses of singular and plural. The use of "[sic]" simply means and designates "as written" as opposed to my own potential mistyping of something, which is also certainly possible, in my case anyway, and does not particularly make any comment, about what has been written.

    Ed
     
    #13 EdSutton, Apr 26, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2009
  14. Me4Him

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    I could have answer the OP question more "directly", but nothing proves a doctrine/precept as well as showing it in context of the scriptures.

    I find few people who understand what the Trib is all about, so when I get a chance to explain it, I do.

    If the church really understood Law/Grace, there wouldn't be any debate about a pre trib rapture,

    Law/Grace can't function at the same time, same time frame, the reason the law (and prophets) were until Jesus (John) and stopped,

    Jesus didn't have the woman caught in adultery stoned to death as the law required.

    I agree, the church has no part in Daniel's prophecy,

    I use the KJV, but not the NKJV because of it's lack of distinction in certain areas, mainly "it's twigs" instead of "His/Her branches", Parable of fig trees.


    I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your words,

    but as noted, I was "predisposed" to a certain interpretation of such.

    I don't consider spelling/transposed as a problem as long as the meaning is clear.
     
  15. jofuss

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    Taken from Waggoner on Romans:

    MARRIED TO THE WRONG MAN. Chapter 7. The seventh chapter
    of Romans is really all contained in the sixth. He who
    understands the sixth chapter will have no difficulty with
    the seventh. By Christ's obedience we are made righteous.
    This is because his life is now given to us, and he lives
    in us. p. 7, Para. 1, [WROM].
    This union with Christ we get by being crucified with him.
    In that death the body of sin is destroyed, that henceforth
    we should not serve sin, or, in other words, that we should
    no more transgress the law. So closely are we identified
    with sin, it being our very life, that it can not be
    destroyed without our dying. But in Christ there is no sin,
    so that while we have a resurrection with him, sin remains
    dead. So, being raised with him, we live with him, a thing
    that was formerly impossible on account of sin; sin can not
    dwell with him. p. 7, Para. 2, [WROM].

    The Illustration. -- It is a very simple one, and one
    which every one can understand. The law of God says of man
    and woman, "They two shall be one flesh." It is adultery
    for either one to be married to another while the other is
    living. The law will not sanction such a union. p. 7,
    Para. 4, [WROM].
    For reasons that will appear later, the illustration cites
    only the case of a woman leaving her husband. The law
    unites them. That law holds the woman to the man as long as
    he lives. If while her husband lives she shall be united to
    another man, she will find herself under the condemnation
    of the law. But if her husband dies, she may be united to
    another, and be perfectly free from any condemnation. p.
    7, Para. 5, [WROM].
    The woman is then "free from the law," although the law
    has not changed in one particular. Least of all has it been
    abolished; for the same law that bound her to the first
    husband and which condemned her for uniting with another in
    his lifetime, now unites her to another and binds her to
    him as closely as it did to the first. If we hold to this
    simple illustration, we shall have no difficulty with what
    follows. p. 7, Para. 6, [WROM].
    The Application. -- As in the illustration there are four
    subjects -- the law, the woman, the first husband, and the
    second husband -- so also in the application. p. 7, Para.
    7, [WROM].
    We are represented as the woman. This is clear from the
    statement that we are "married to another, even to him who
    is raised from the dead," which is Christ. He therefore is
    the second husband. The first husband is indicated in verse
    5: "When we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which
    were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth
    fruit unto death." Death is the fruit of sin. The first
    husband, therefore, was the flesh, or "the body of sin."
    p. 7, Para. 8, [WROM].
    "Dead to the Law." -- This is the expression that troubles
    so many. There is nothing troublesome in it, if we but keep
    in mind the illustration and the nature of the parties to
    this transaction. Why are we dead to the law? In order that
    we might be married to another. But how is it that we
    become dead in order to be married to another? In the
    illustration it is the first husband that dies before the
    woman may be married to another. Even so it is here, as we
    shall see. p. 7, Para. 9, [WROM].
    "One Flesh." -- The law of marriage is that the two
    parties to it "shall be one flesh." How is it in this case?
    The first husband is the flesh, the body of sin. Well, we
    were truly one flesh with that. We were by nature perfectly
    united to sin. It was our life. It controlled us. Whatever
    sin devised, that we did. We might have done it unwillingly
    at times, but we did it nevertheless. Sin reigned in our
    mortal bodies, so that we obeyed it in the lusts thereof.
    Whatever sin wished, was law to us. We were one flesh. p.
    7, Para. 10, [WROM].
    Seeking a Divorce. -- There comes a time in our experience
    when we wish to be free from sin. It is when we see
    something of the beauty of holiness. With some people the
    desire is only occasional; with others it is more constant.
    Whether they recognize the fact or not, it is Christ
    appealing to them to forsake sin, and to be joined to him,
    to live with him. And so they endeavor to effect a
    separation. But sin will not consent. In spite of all that
    we can do, it still clings to us. We are "one flesh," and
    it is a union for life since it is a union of our life to
    sin. There is no divorce in that marriage. p. 7, Para. 11,
    [WROM].
    Freedom in Death. -- There is no hope of effecting a
    separation from sin by any ordinary means. No matter how
    much we may desire to be united to Christ, it can not be
    done while we are joined to sin; for the law will not
    sanction such a union, and Christ will not enter into any
    union that is not lawful. p. 7, Para. 12, [WROM].
    If we could only get sin to die, we should be free, but it
    will not die. There is only one way for us to be freed from
    the hateful union, and that is for us to die. If we wish
    freedom so much that we are willing [for self] to be
    crucified, then it may be done. In death the separation is
    effected; for it is by the body of Christ that "we" become
    dead. We are crucified with him. The body of sin is also
    crucified. But while the body of sin is destroyed, we have
    a resurrection in Christ. The same thing that frees us from
    the first husband, unites us to the second. p. 7, Para.
    13, [WROM].
    A New Creature. -- Now we see how it is that we are dead
    to the law. We died in Christ, and were raised in him. But
    "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things
    are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all
    things are of God." 2 Cor. 5:17, 18. Now we may be united
    to Christ, and the law will witness to the union, and
    sanction it. For not only is the first husband dead, but we
    also died, so that, although alive, we are not the same
    creature that we were before. "I am crucified with Christ;
    nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me."
    Gal. 2:20. We are one. The same law that formerly declared
    us to be sinners now binds us to Christ. p. 7, Para. 14,
    [WROM].
    A Different Service. -- Now that the union with Christ has
    been effected, we serve in newness of spirit and not in the
    oldness of the letter. In marriage, the woman is to be
    subject to the husband. So when we were united to sin, we
    were in all things subject to sin. For a time it was
    willing service; but when we saw the Lord, and were drawn
    to him, the service became irksome. We tried to keep God's
    law, but were bound, and could not. But now we are set
    free. Sin no longer restrains us, and our service is
    freedom. We gladly render to Christ all the service that
    the law requires of us. We render this service because of
    the perfect union between us. His life is ours, since we
    were raised only by the power of his life. Therefore our
    obedience is simply his loyalty and faithfulness in us. p.
    7, Para. 15, [WROM].
     
  16. jofuss

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    Sin by the Law. -- The apostle says that when we were in
    the flesh, "the motions of sins, which were by the law, did
    work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." What
    shall we say then? Is the law sin? Far from it. The law is
    righteousness. But it is only by the law that sin is known.
    "Sin is not imputed when there is no law." "The sting of
    death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." 1 Cor.
    15:56. "Sin is the transgression of the law." So there can
    be no sin but by the law. But the law is not sin; for if it
    were, it would not reprove sin. To convince of sin is the
    work of the Spirit of God, and not of Satan. He would make
    us believe that sin is right. p. 7, Para. 16, [WROM].
    "Thou Shalt Not Covet." -- It once seemed very strange
    that the apostle should have quoted only this one
    commandment as the one that convicted him of sin. But the
    reason is plain. It was because this one includes every
    other. We learn (Col. 3:5) that covetousness is idolatry.
    Thus the law ends just where it begins. It is a complete
    circle, including every duty of every person in the
    universe. "I had not known lust," or unlawful desire,
    "except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Now lust
    is the beginning of every sin, for "when lust hath
    conceived, it bringeth forth sin." James 1:15. And sin is
    the transgression of the law. p. 7, Para. 17, [WROM].
    But the tenth commandment is that one which forbids lust
    or unlawful desire. Therefore, if it is perfectly kept, all
    the others must be. And if it is not kept, no part of the
    law is kept. So we see that in quoting the tenth
    commandment as that which convinced him of sin, the apostle
    really included the whole law. p. 7, Para. 18, [WROM].
    Living with Him. -- Before leaving this portion we must
    call attention to the force of the eighth verse of chapter
    6: "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall
    also live with him." We can see how apt this is when we
    know that it is our death with Christ that frees us from
    the union with the monster sin, and unites us in marriage
    to Christ. People get married in order to live together. So
    we become united to Christ in order that we may live with
    him here and in the world to come. If we would live with
    him in the world to come, we must live with him in this
    world. p. 7, Para. 19, [WROM].
    In the first seven verses of the seventh chapter of Romans
    we have had the relation which we by nature sustain to sin,
    and which by grace we afterwards sustain to Christ,
    represented under the figure of marriage to a first and
    second husband. The union with the second husband can not
    take place while the first husband is living; and in this
    case the marriage is so perfect, the two parties being
    literally one flesh and blood, that one can not die without
    the other; therefore we must needs die with sin, before we
    can be separated from it. p. 7, Para. 20, [WROM].
    But we die in Christ, and as he lives, although he was
    dead, we also live with him. But in his life there is no
    sin, and so the body of sin is destroyed, while we are
    raised. Thus in death we are separated from the first
    husband, sin, and united to the second husband, Christ. p.
    7, Para. 21, [WROM].
     
  17. HisServant

    HisServant
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    I read this thread. I do not understand what a single response has to do with the original question...

    What am I missing?
     

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