So who DO you agree with?

What? It has been articulated to death! You just don't like it.

 

YOu're using the wrong kind of tape them Sag38! :laugh: Just kidding!

 

Pinky is okay, but leaves something to be desired--as does pinko.

How about pinkster?

 

Total Depravity I do not believe that men are totally depraved. Man was originally created in the image of God and even though man is in a sin state, there may be found some goodness. I am not saying the man will earn heaven by good works. Just that unsaved people may be unselfishly charitable; that is, they may do kind acts for other people without selfish motivation. An unsaved man may tell the truth instead of a lie, unsaved men can be faithful to their wives and never commit adultery. Therefore I cannot agree that they are totally depraved. I have met some unsaved men who were more ethical and honest than some baptist pastors who claim the unsaved man is totally depraved.

Unconditional Election I do not believe that God unconditionally elects certain men to salvation. I believe that men have the free volition to make their own decision. I believe the Holy Spirits works to convict men of their sins and that it is the free will choice of men to choose or reject salvation.

Limited Atonement I do not believe that the blood atonement was limited to some mystical predetermined group of people who must involuntarily accept salvation. I believe that Jesus Christ made atonement for any man who would accept his salvation.

Irresistible Grace I do not believe the grace of God is irresistible. I believe that a man can be convicted of his sins and be shown the grace of God and have opportunity to receive it, and yet by personal free will choice, resist/reject the grace of God, turning his back on salvation.

Perseverance of the Saints This is about the only point I can mostly agree with. In recent years I've been giving lots of thought to this one. I believe most Christians will persevere to the end. Although lately I've been giving much thought to those who loose faith. I just don't agree with the statement "well they were never saved to begin with". I do not believe that anyone but God can make that judgment. Col 1:21-23 has really got me thinking about this. We are saved by faith, live by faith, and kept by faith. But what about the person who looses their faith, stops believing. What about the negative of Col 1:23? What of the person who does not continue in the faith and is moved away from the hope of the gospel? Anyway, I'm not going to argue this point.

Is this what you were looking for? I have articulated my side for each of the points of TULIP.

 

Doesn't this position fit the label of 'four point arminian'?

 

Heck if I know, I figured the Label Masters would tell me soon enough.

 

I agree with the first four points here, but not the fifth. I believe once saved, always saved. I believe the scriptures clearly show that the moment we believe we pass from death to life and that we are preserved.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Many times Jesus told people that their sins were forgiven now. This could not be said if a person could lose their salvation later.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Myself, I read the Bible and ask the Lord to help me understand the scriptures. I rarely if ever read or care what men say. Once in awhile if a passage is difficult I will consult a commentary.

 

Like I said, I am not going to argue the fifth point. I've just been thinking about it lately. Especially in light of personally dealing with some people who at one time professed to be saved, had all the right answers to the questions, lived the life, served the church. And yet now, they do not believe in God or Jesus. I know the standard baptist answer is "well they were never saved to begin with", but I am not prepared to make that judgment. So I've been studying the conditional verses. About the only conclusion that I can justify with scripture has been banned (I think) by the board, so I will leave well enough alone.

 

Well, I didn't write to argue with you either. There are some difficult passages in the Bible that on first glance do seem to imply that a person can lose their salvation. I have pretty much cleared these up through study myself.

I have only met one person in my life who said they believed when they were young, but did not believe now. A very unusual fellow he was.

I personally believe that there are some saved who never show the evidence, but are saved nonetheless. A good example is the ten lepers who were healed. All were healed which I believe is a picture of salvation, but only one returned in gratitude to serve.

Luke 17:11 And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

So, all ten came to Jesus, all ten had faith, and all ten were healed. But only one showed real love and gratitude to Jesus.

And then there are others who seem very religious but are not saved.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These folks appear very religious, and I think most would believe them saved. But they trust in their own good works and not Jesus and so are lost.

So, I try not to judge who is saved or lost by observation. There are some who are saved who you would never guess by watching their behaviour, and some who are lost that would appear outwardly to be saved.

 

Well then they are depraved, but not totally. I believe in the depravity of man. My responses were based on how the TULIP has been presented to me and definitions as I have read them. I can agree with most your post here, but to me (based on what I've read) your definition does not fit the term "Total Depravity".

I must however disagree with your sentence "They also have no desire or ability to free themselves from the bondage of their own sinful natures in a saving fashion". If that were true, then there would be no "works for salvation" religions. The very fact that lost men try to earn salvation by works, proves that they have a desire to free themselves from the bondage of sin.

 

If this statement is true, doesn't that mean that Jesus' death on the cross did not atone for every sin of every person?

 

Jesus blood atoned for all sin, but you must believe. If you die in a state of unbelief, you will be condemned.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.


Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

I've mentioned it a few times before, but I will agree that I don't actually remember anyone else claiming it outright. Everyone's definition of the term is different, so there's always some way to dodge it if one wishes. Myself, I decided about thirty five years ago that I wasn't going to run when somebody threatened to call me a name. It's too tiresome.

 

Darrenss1 has admitted it several times.

I admire you Pipedude. (Yeah, that's kind of a promo for my thread.)

 

Yep, that would make my life complete, to be admired by you.

 

Not unless Pipedude is your alter ego.

 

In other words, Jesus' death on the cross did not fully atone for all sins.

Or, is it your position that Jesus' death on the cross covered the sin of unbelief, but not completely? That his propitiation (payment) must be supplemented by another payment?