Socialism anyone?

Yes, Job was extremely wealthy before and then after his troubles.

 

You skipped right over most of my comments but I'm not surprised. So, to be brief in my response, the two choices we face are capitalism - in danger of being destroyed - and socialism - being advanced as its destroyer. The Obamanites and friends will not pull the wool over my eyes regarding this. The Bible teaches a lot of things regarding the responsibility to work, to earn one's keep, to wisely handle one's wealth, and to be charitable to others. It also teaches much about the distinction between the roles of self, family, church, and state governance. I make no claim that capitalism is perfect nor is it some kind of religion called for in the Bible. I do claim that it is the best economic system ever instituted - far better than most - and, when it comes to mankind, there really not anything new under the sun. When someone comes along wanting to "change" things to something fundamental to something "better" right now because "dire consequences" await and "only government ..." then I think it's time to be very wary of both the message and the messenger.

 

One of the fruits of Socialism is the destruction of the Christian Faith as demonstrated by the state of the Church in Western Europe. So we are leaving our children and grandchildren a mountain of debt and a Godless society.

 

Thanx. I hates to bring the bible into every discussion, y'know.....







:laugh:

 

How do you know there are only two choices?

 

I think that most of us would agree that we want a health care system that works for all or at least most of the people. The U.S. spends more on health care than any other nation but in the 2000 World Health organization study we ranked 37th in the world in terms of the effectiveness of our health care delivery system. That just above Cuba and just below Costa Rica.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

In terms of life expectancy we're 24th in the world. Why are most conservatives opposed to improving our health care? It seems to me that should be a high priority.

 

Because after seeing the reports on Walter Reed, we know that governments can't run health care. Fix it by making it worse ? Highly illogical.

 

Is Capitalism Compatible with Christianity?

Upon first look, capitalism and Christianity appear to be compatible views on parallel tracks, if not on the same track. Some have argued, although not convincingly, that capitalism is the Christian philosophy of economics. Both teach ownership of property, autonomy in economic activity, and benefits from one’s labor. The two have co-existed in Western Civilization since the nineteenth century. This may appear to be a questionable statement because elements of a free market have existed since the first barter between men. For our purposes, however, capitalism is not synonymous with free market economics, as some proponents would claim. Although capitalism advocates free market economics, it does not circumscribe it. In other words, free market economics is broader and bigger than capitalism, which is only one particular way of thinking about free market economics. By capitalism, we mean the present form that arose in the nineteenth century amidst the intellectual ferment of modernism, rationalism and Social Darwinism. Capitalism as such did not exist prior to this time. We will argue in another place that earlier forms, or precursors, of capitalism embodied a different value system and rationalization.

For our purposes, Christianity, on the other hand, is not the civil religion that is professed by the western world. We will define Christian as the Bible-believing kind that accepts the Bible as the inspired Word of God, which is sufficient basis for “all things pertaining to life and godliness.” Hence, Scripture is the basis for judging the moral/ethical center of any system. In this, we are foundational in epistemology by presupposing that truth is eternal, universal, and final. Concerning value systems, there is no room for relativism or circumstances or cultural differences, although there is dissent in application and policy-making.

This brings us to the question. What are the underlying value systems of capitalism and Christianity? Ayn Rand forcefully and persuasively argues for capitalism, which is very much in sync with her philosophy of individualism and self. After all, the tenets of capitalism are the Social Darwinian principles of competition and survival of the fittest. Social Darwinism, of course, has no more credibility today than the Sokel Affair that gulled the editors of Social Context into believing that evolution supported Marxism. Much like Piagetian psychology based the discredited scheme of phylogenetic recapitulation, Social Darwinism is a discredited and misguided attempt to explain and support social and economic theory upon a naturalistic and scientific basis. Now, we know better.

How can capitalist proponents still spout these same Social Darwinian cliques even though they must know they are specious and irrelevant? (Again, we will argue these points at another time and place.) Could it be that it is what we want to hear? What we want to believe? It panders to our lusts, our greed. After all, capitalism makes the bottom line (i.e. profit/loss) good reason for whatever economic action we want to take. Profit is the “good” that excuses all deeds. Capitalism validates and appeals to our self-interest as the sole criterion for judging what is the “good.” Competition and survival of the fittest rationalizes any actions. If it is to our self-interest, then it is good and we are warranted in pursuing it. It does not matter that another’s interest may be trashed in the course of action. Self-interest trumps all. One can easily see how this satisfying of desire and promotion of self-interest appeals strongly to our culture of selfism and individualism. We want capitalism to be true for our own interests.

Christianity, on the other hand, espouses a completely different value system. Man’s first duty is to God (Matthew 22:37)—to love, to obey, and to worship. Jesus Christ, however, said that man’s second duty is similar to the first—that is to love one’s neighbor as one’s self (Matthew 22:39). This recognizes man’s natural love of himself (i.e. self-interest) but it places loving another on the same level as loving one’s self. This means that one puts his neighbor’s interest on the same level as his own interest. Christianity demands caring for one’s own interests in working to supply one’s needs (II Thessalonians 3:6-15) and providing for his household (I Timothy 5:8). Whereas capitalism gives unrestrained freedom to self-interest, Christianity acknowledges self-interest and ties it to another’s interest with a logical and. In the Christian value system, self-interest is no longer roaming free but it is fettered with the well-being of one’s fellow man. As we protect our own welfare, we must likewise protect the well-being of our neighbor.

We see the clash of capitalism and Christianity in the matter of self-interest versus another’s interest. In capitalism, one is free to pursue his self-interest, as justified by competition and survival of the fittest, at the expense of another’s interest if necessary. Christianity does not allow the pursuit of self-interest to the exclusion of another’s interest. The Apostle Paul exemplified this principle by vowing to eat no meat, although it was lawful for him, if it would cause his brother to offend (I Corinthians 8:13). He willingly subrogated his good to the good of his brother for a greater good. The Christian must consider his own good in light of another’s good as well. The Christian view, then, does not take advantage of weakness whereas capitalism judges the other less fit and exploits the weakness. The premises are antithetical.

Here in the foundational principles of the two views, we find the rub. Whereas there is agreement in the legitimate promotion of self-interest, only Christianity retrains the self-interest with another’s’ interest. Capitalism, which preaches no moral or ethical restraint, tends to follow the course of human nature in running to excess in greediness. Christianity, in contrast, harnesses the natural self-interest to draw along the others’ good as well. It is a telling inference that the former thief is admonished to labor with his hands to produce wealth that he may have to distribute to others who need (Ephesians 4:28). In sum, Christianity is compatible with a free market economy that allows the individual to provide for his own needs but it does not promote wealth for wealth’s sake. Wealth is not innately sinful but it is rather a byproduct of right behavior, not the end of itself. Capitalism, on the other hand, focuses on the accumulation of wealth as a “good” to be pursue for its own self. As the Apostle Paul advised Timothy:

”If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (I Timothy 6:3-11)”
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Which church? Institutional or believing?

One may well argue that the true church thrived more under godless Communism, an extreme measure of totalitarian socialism, than it has under the wealth and corruption of the capitalistic West. Talk with anyone who has visited the underground churches of Communist China. Ask the survivors of the "Evil Empire," the USSR. It appears that adversity and persecution purifies the church but prosperity tends to complacency and compromise resulting in a worldly church. Furthermore, the churches of Western Europe were already dead and corrupt from Liberalism and Rationalism (they had no Fundamentalist movement to speak of) before socialism ever took root. One could well contend that socialism was the result rather than the cause. Neither capitalism, with its emphasis on wealth and materialism, nor socialism, with its emphasis on social (community-based) action, are friends to grace. Each has it own attendant temptations. I have always found Proverbs 30:7-9 to be especially intriquing:

"Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."
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Now, isn't that an accurate cameo of human nature?

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Satisfying the market................

You have hit upon one of my criticisms of capitalism--it is solely market-driven. Thus, we can justify dope-peddling upon the market demand. After all, it is the demand of the users who create the market for the pushers. And some libertarians would go this far. On the other hand, I am arguing for a moral element and restraint in the marketplace. I don't make and sell a harmful product even though it would bring me profit and I could get away with it. This relate somewhat to standing behind one's product.

It's really very simple. Freedom works when attended by responsible behavior. Responsible behavior requires an understanding of the system and one's responsibility in the system. Capitalism has removed responsible behavior from the equation and justifies all behavior by the bottom line. Even Milton Friedman said that there must be some control. I agree with the disclaimer that the control must be minimal. We must have laws that deal with fraud and cheating. However, there is some necessary regulation beyond this depending on responsible or irresponsible behavior.

There are existing laws against insider trading, securities fraud, etc. Now, my point is that irresponsible behavior creates a climate calling for more control. In this way, capitalists play right into the hands of socialists. By promoting moral/ethical principles in the free market by the participants, one reduces the need for controls. The market must discipline itself.

How would this work? As a moral and ethical Christian, I do not patronize a retail establishment that deals in pornographic material. Now, if businessmen made it a practice of not doing business with firms having unethical practices, it would be self-regulation by the market. It is placing responsibility back on the market. No, it's not perfect and there would still be wrongdoing but a cursory survey of past business ethics would find a self-regulating function.

How can anyone decry the advocating of more moral/ethical behavior in any field? That doesn't make sense.

 

What two choices? Do you mean right or wrong? If so, yes, there are only two. Do you mean capitalism or socialism? If so, no, there are many choices but one - capitalism - has proved to be the best of all time and the others pale in comparison. There is no gain for us to imitate the failures of others.

 

We need to do something different because our current approach isn't working. We spend more per capita on medical support but do not achieve the expected results.

 

I agree with most of this, especially this: "Freedom works when attended by responsible behavior."

But here is where you err: "Capitalism has removed responsible behavior from the equation and justifies all behavior by the bottom line." Capitalism does nothing but what PEOPLE make it do.

As you said, we already have laws to control the abuses of the system. The problem is on the political side of the equation. Politicians and government agencies today fail to enforce the laws that are already on the books. Just look at the anti-trust laws that we have. They are probably the most un-enforced laws in history.

Maybe you should turn your wrath on the corrupt political system that promotes the worst features of capitalism. I think what you see happening is Laviathon Government combining with Laviathon Big Business to form a compact to ensure each other's survival. This is caused by human thirst for power, not capitalism.

 

We spend $10 billion a year on emergency room care for illegal aliens. I bet they're pretty happy with our system.

Are you saying a socialist system is the answer ? Is that why you have the "FREEDON" avatar ?

 

Yes, a social health care system is what is needed in the U.S.

 

Socialists have become much bolder in recent times. Now that Obama is in the White House they have a national leader.

 

Paid's whole argument against capitalism is like watching a 'Girls Gone Wild' video and then saying we should get rid of girls.

 

It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. The answer is somewhere in between.

 

This scripture has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with salvation. You are distorting the Bible to make it a book supporting American capitalism.

 

Actually, it supports pre-American capitalism. You are the one twisting.