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Sola Scriptura vs Man-made Traditions - ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 17, 2006.

  1. Raindrop

    Raindrop New Member

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    Bob, thanks for your post. It really is important to think about what we believe and what we're doing.

    I've heard that 90% of the Down Syndrome babies in the US are aborted every year. Since the proportion of Christians in the country is greater than 10%, it's clear that many Christian women who find out they're carrying a DS child abort it. So much for "Thou shalt not murder."

    I've read that thirty nine percent of our clergymen are into pornography, which Christ said is the same as adultery. So much for "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

    Most of the shoppers on Sundays (at least in this area) are Christians. So much for "Honor the Sabbath to keep it holy."

    We as a group are not even following the ten commandments.

    Is it really that hard to honor God with your life? Is it really that hard to read the Bible for yourself and to discuss it with others in your church? Is it that hard to grow in faith? No, it isn't. In fact, it's much harder not to. "The way of the transgressors is hard." (Proverbs 13:15)

    I left an evangelical Friends (Quaker) church where I have many friends because they put their traditions ahead of the clear teachings of Christ. I have found that unless a church is solid in the faith, walking in Biblical truth and grace, there is no firm foundation there.

    People ought to read Hebrews 12 more. Our God is so awesome.
     
  2. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    I see lots of quotes but I don't see anything concerning the Altar Call.

    Revelation 3:14-22 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. 15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

    I really do not see how the promise of fellowship for those who do not reject Christ is justification for a practice which promotes the idea of salvation by human will.

    John 12:30-33 esus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

    Again a verse which has nothing to do with an altar call. This verse is about the kind of death Jesus was going to die.

    The altar call is based on 2Cor 5 "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to God".

    Hmm... Judging by this verse I would have to say you believe that the Altar Call saves. Honestly this may be the closest as the Altar Call is claimed to be a call of the Gospel, but the essence and theology driving the Altar is what violates Scripture. The Altar Call is based upon the faulty idea a sinful human being can ever decide by their own will to be a disciple of Christ. People have deluded themselves into believing they have free will, they don't their will is either bound to Sin or bound to Christ. They are no longer free to will or decide anything anymore, this is why we are referred to as slaves in the Scriptures.
     
  3. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    Mr. Chemnitz, you hit the nail on the head.
     
  4. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    The baptist John Gill on John 12:32:

    Joh 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,.... The death of Christ is here signified by his being "lifted up from the earth", in allusion to the lifting up of the brazen serpent on the pole; and shows, that his death would not be natural, but violent, and would be public, and not private; and fitly expresses his mediation between God, and men, being lifted up between the heavens and the earth; and points out the death of the cross, as is intimated in the next verse: and the "if" here does not suppose that his death, and the manner of it, were uncertain, for it was determined by God, agreed to by himself, predicted in the Scriptures, signified by types, and foretold by himself, and was necessary for the salvation of his people; but it designs the time of his drawing persons to himself, which is afterwards expressed, and may be rendered, "when I am lifted up", as it is by the Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions: now when this will be, Christ says,
    I will draw all men to me; which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him. There were many of the Jews who would not, and did not come to him for life; and who instead of being drawn to him in this sense, when lifted up on the cross, vilified and reproached him; moreover, in the preceding verse, "a world" is spoken of, whose judgment, or condemnation, was now come; and besides, there was at this time a multitude of souls in hell, who could not, nor never will be, drawn to Christ; and a greater number still there will be at the last day, who, instead of drawing to him in this gracious way and manner, will be bid to depart from him, as having been workers of iniquity. Christ died indeed for all men who are drawn unto him; but this is not true of all men, that are, were, or shall be in the world. Add to this, that the word "men" is not in the text, it is only
    παντας, "all": Beza's most ancient copy, and some others, and the Vulgate Latin version read παντα, "all things"; and by "all" are meant, all the elect of God, all the children of God, "that were scattered abroad"; the Persic version reads, "I will draw my friends to me"; it designs some of all sorts of men, of every state, condition, age, sex, and nation, Gentiles as well as Jews, and especially the former; which agrees with the ancient prophecy, Gen_49:10, and with the context, and the occasion of the words, which was the desire of the Greeks, that were come to the feast, to see Jesus; and which was a specimen of the large numbers of them, that should be drawn to Christ, through the preaching of the Gospel, after his death: the Jews say, that in the time to come, or in the days of the Messiah, all the proselytes shall be גרורים, "drawn", shall freely become proselytes (e). The allusion here, is to the setting up of a standard or ensign, to gather persons together. Christ's cross is the standard, his love is the banner, and he himself is the ensign, which draw souls to himself, and engage them to enlist themselves under him, and become his volunteers in the day his power; see Isa_11:10.
    (e) T. Bab. Avoda Zara, fol. 24. 1. & Gloss. in ib.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Gill's proof is -




    His argument is not from the text - it is from his view that anyone drawn to Christ MUST ALSO choose to be Christians and if they do not then it is only because they were not drawn and indeed not even ENABLED.

    It is left as an exercise for the reader to note that flaw in that argument on Gill's part.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Notice that Christ is on the OUTSIDE -- He does not say "Behold you are asleep and helpless on the inside so I BURST down the door and come in and make you fellowship with me so that Calvinists won't say you saved yourself".


    the Drawing of God -- even by Calvinist definitions ENABLES what depravity DISABLES.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    The thing that should be noticed is that Christ is talking to Christians not to unbelievers. He is encouraging them to grow in fellowship not enter into fellowship for they are already there. The Altar Call is a call to accept/make a decision for Christ, in other words a call to begin a right relationship. To tell people they have to accept or make a decision for Christ is to tell them that they must do something in order to be saved. Thus, the altar call is based upon a human work and should rightly be denounced as a false practice.

    P.S. I am not a Calvinist.
     
  8. Dustin

    Dustin New Member

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    Mr. Chemnitz, you're on a roll, sir.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    First of all I applaud your position. But as you will soon see on this thread - on this board -- the Ten Commandments THEMSELVES are up for deleting.

    In Christian America the church is teaching that God nailed His own Ten commandments to the Cross and abolished them. The RESULT is as you have stated - AND it is pretty much predictable.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The altar call is based on 2Cor 5 "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to God".

    The perfect contradiction between your view and 2Cor 5 is just as you have pointed out. AND as you have pointed out the flaw is in your own INSERTION to the text that the "begging must then SAVE" because you feel that NOBODY CAN choose to respond to that begging.

    The Arminian altar Call is used by a great many Calvinists. You are honest enough to admit as a Calvinist that this is totally contradictory to Calvinism's doctrines.

    I thank you.

    The CALVINIST Altar call will go something like this "I COULD stand up here and beg you on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to
    God but you STILL would not be ABLE to respond. NOTHING I say and NOTHING you choose will change your case at all today - so silence is best. What God has sovereingly ordained will happen today whether I speak or not and whether you choose or not. God so loved the FEW that He gave His Son and it is highly unlikely that YOU just so happen to be among the FEW. But just in case we will be seated now in silence for the next 15 minutes to SEE if God just so happened to ordain someone here to be converted in the next 15 minutes"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2006
  11. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    Bob, can you not read? I said I am not a Calvinist. The world is not divided up into just Arminians and Calvinists. There are those of us who think both of them are wrong.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There are only two options.

    Free will exists or it does not.

    Both options are covered by some group today.

    It is impossible to successfully argue that all options are wrong.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I see that Lutherans often enter the CvsA debate claiming "I'm not Calvinist" (yet pitching the same "bondage of the will" concept, which is supposed to prove it is not just Calvinists who oppose free will).
    But for the sake of the discussion, since that does place y'all on the side of Calvinism (since the doctrine took on his name more than Luther or Augustine), your position can be called Calvinism.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Pure nonsense. Calvinists call men to salvation and belief because our Savior did. In obedience to Scripture, men are called on to respond. That is what Calvinism teaches as a part of its belief. It is not contradictory to it in the least. Calvinists do not given an "Arminian altar call" whatever that is. But to call people to respond to the gospel is as Calvinist as it gets.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    What, pray tell, are you?
     
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