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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Bible-boy, May 3, 2006.
Isn't that the truth!
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]The above was the last post in the Original Thread.
I think this whole issue has been mistaken. I nor anyone else to my knowledge says the Scriptures aren't our Final Authority. THEY ARE. But it's how we interpet them that is being discussed. DHK,D28Guy, Eliyahu,epistemaniac, you guys all believe in your own interpetation. I choose to look at how the Church A.D.33-1054 and then from 1534 onward has interpeted Holy Scripture.
No, that isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not the Bible is in and of itself our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. It is our "sole" appeal for authority, or final authority. The Catholic Church says "Absolutely not!" We have Oral Tradition. They even go farther and say that Oral Tradition interprets the infallible inspired Word of God.
It is tradition that is fallible.
It is the Word of God that is infallible.
Some people have things backwards.
Oral Tradition was the Pharisees' bane as well, if you remember. Matthew 23 documents it well.
To me the issue is this...
Do your "extra biblical" sources contradict what is already written in the Bible.
1Cor:14:29: Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Cor:14:32: And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Because I believe the Bible itself tells us there would be gifts of the Spirit in these end times. So Sola Scriptura would include the prophets.
But it also talks in the Bible about false prophets. There are tests for that.
From what I understand of the Catholic Church, they think the Scriptures themselves tell us that leaders can change the Bible.
For Instance as an example:
"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.
"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.
The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.
That of course is wrong. The same Holy Spirit that inspired the Bible writers would inspire also any extra biblcal source if it was from God and would not contradict itself.
In times past there were prophets and then there were new prophets that came along and admonished the people. The false prophets always spoke "smooth words"...
1: Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
9: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
The true prophets spoke according to what was already written and led the people BACK to the neglected Word of God and what God had already told them:
Isa:8:20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
And so they always had new prophets coming along, extra-biblical things they had to evaluate. And the test was, is what this person saying to us going against what was already written?
Because we should try to stifle the Holy Spirit and say that God is confined to this Holy Bible and what it says.
On the other hand though, the Bible does contain all that is needed for salvation. Yet God calls people, to speak for Him and uses them to turn His people BACK to the already written word of God.
I dont see that being the case where the Catholic Church is concerned.
There were the 4 daughters of Phillip the Evangelist who had the gift of prophecy..
Jesus counts the rejection of a true prophet as rejecting the counsel of God Himself.
29: And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30: But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Futher, He states that siritual prosperity hinges upon believing His prophets (2Chron. 20:20)
If all the posters here agree that Bible has the final authority and the sovereignty of all matters, that is very fine and we may make a progress to narrow the gap on this issue.
If the difference is only about the interpretation or how to apply the Scripture to the actual life, then we can discuss this under the agreement that the Scripture has the final authority and the sovereignty of all matters.
Now again, what if any interpretation is found to be contradicting the other verses of the Scriptures? Can we not say that even the interpretation should be subject to the Scripture?
Therefore my own interpretation of the Bible is connected with another verses of the Scriptures and the interpretations should not contradict each other. The Holy Spirit who is the Author of the Bible doesn't work in contradiction to what He wrote in the Scripture.
Therefore when we had a certain issue, despite that we can judge the matter according to the Bible Scripture, if anyone brings certain Traditions to defend such issue against the Scripture, that person is wrong!
If we read carefully Bible, Bible has the answers all the time for our needs.
1. If Compulsory celibacy is found to be wrong according to the Scripture, then it is wrong despite the Tradition.
2. If Papacy is found to be wrong according to Bible Scripture, it is wrong despite the Tradition !
3. If the statue of Mary is found to be Idol and is wrong according to the Scripture, it is wrong despite any Tradition.
4. If the Prayer to the dead and the Prayer for the dead are wrong, they are wrong despite any Tradition!
Am I clear?
What do you think this means?
2Pt:1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Not that it has anything to do with what you just said but I was reading about that Bible verse the other day and was curious as to what people think that actually means
It means basically, "esoteric"; not that a person can't read the Bible for himself.
I am not sure about the English meaning of private at the time of King James, but I feel it needs to be updated or corrected.
The Word behind Private is "idias" which means of itself or its own, or it alone. I interpret it as " not the scripture verse itself, but in connection with other verses"
16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Best Interpretation of the Bible comes from the Bible itself. Bible can best be interpretted when it is interpretted by another verses of the Bible.
so you see it like this:
1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual .
Isa:28:10: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
Finally Yes this is what the thread was originally started to be. Maybe after 22 pages we can actually make it to what I originally wanted to discuss.
2Pt:1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The context of the word "private" has nothing to do with private Bible Study. That would contradict everything the Bible says about prayer and Bible study.
We are commanded to study our Bibles, over and over again--all throughout the Scriptures, both Old and New.
Why did Paul write:
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
--He knew there would different and varying interpretations of the Bible among the believers at Corinth, and that was good for them. Iron sharpenth iron. It would encourage each of them to privately study their Bibles in order to come out with the truth in the end.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
--A direct command for personal Bible study (private Bible Study)
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
--Timothy was unable to preach sound doctrine without first spending time in private Bible Study. Ask any preacher/pastor if this is not true today. Does a pastor just get up in the pulpit before his congregation and speak extemporaneously whatever comes to mind with no preparation whatsoever? No. Hopefully he has spent much time in prayer, and in personal, private Bible Study!
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
--The reason the 7 were chosen was that the Apostles could give themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word (which would include private Bible Study).
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
--The command of Jesus and a rebuke to the Sadduccees--"Search the Scriptures!" In other words do your own private Bible Study.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--This is exactly what the Bereans did when Paul came to them. They did their own private Bible study before they would accept what Paul said. No doubt they studied their Bibles first on a personal and private level, and then came together as a group to see if they agreed with one another. After having agreed with one another that what Paul had said was true. Their private sola Scriptural method of Bible Study, had led them to unity in the truth that what Paul had preached to them was indeed the truth according to the Old Testament Scriptures, and therefore there was no reason not to accept it.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
--There was an obligation on the part of every Jew to know the law. This would require personal Bible study, as well as attendance at the synagogues. Private Bible Study was required.
Joshua 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
--We are commanded to meditate on the Word day and night. How are you going to accomplish that unless first you have done some personal private Bible study, and memorized Scripture that you have studied.
Matthew 6:5-6 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
--Jesus advocated entering into your room, shutting the door, being alone, praying to God in secret. I believe we would advocate the same with the Word. In prayer we communicate with God. In the Word God communicates with us. Personal and private Bible Study is an absolute necessity.
1Pet.1:20 is not talking about personal private study. It is referring to something else.
What else is it referring to?
Check out 1Tim.4:1-3
1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
When an organization or church (denomination) commands their members to believe one way or another, then they take away private Bible Study. They take away sola scriptura. They take away freedom of religion. They take away their responsibility before God to study the Bible on their own.
This is what the Catholic Church has done with the magesterium and the catechism.
For example: What does it mean to be born again? Here is one of the most essential doctrinnes of the Bible. Jesus said "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God." The Catholic Catechism states that to be born again is to be baptized. That is the meaning of being born again. There is no room for any negotiation from that position. It is the heresy of baptismal regeneration. The church has declared it to be so. Every Catholic must believe it no matter how much Bible study may prove otherwise. It is the Catholic doctrine, a doctrine of demons, enforced among their members.
Likewise the example given in this passage of Scripture--forbidding to marry--as they enforce among their priesthood. Celibacy! It is a doctrine of demons. There is no soul liberty. There is no choice. It is forced among the clergy. This the RCC's private interpretation. It is their's and no one else's
The Mormon's and SDA's enforce certain dietary restrictions among their people when the Bible states that all things are good and notthing to be refused. The Bible says that this is a doctrine of demmons. This is their private interpretation that they are enforcing among their people and taking away from them their right to come to their own conclusion through the Scriptures.
The private interpretation spoken of in 2Peter 1:20 refers to churches as a whole, organizations, etc.
1st of all, no we dont. It is the Holy Spirit who is the "interpreter of the scriptures".
But you are correct in the sense that every born again person is expected by God to prayfully, and with the Holy Spirits guidence, turn to the scriptures themselves for truth, and to test all things...including what ever denomination they are a part of, against.
That is Gods will for every individual believer.
Only those who were completly hoodwinked Catholics were that way. Those in the Catholic Church who had the Holy Spirit to open their understanding to truth, and who stayed in to witness from within, did not believe that way.
In adition, those born again brothers and sisters who fled to clutches of the Catholic Church, or who never were a part of it, and probably were murdered by the Catholic Church did not believe that way either.
The Catholic Church also believes the so called "Holy Tradition" is the actual authority. They might not come right out and SAY it that plainly, but what the Catholic Church SAYS can never be relied on to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." They are masters at cunningly "speaking with forked tongue"
In practice the *supposed* "Holy Tradition" supercedes the scriptures, and of course the Lord Jesus Christ personally condemns that in Mark 7.
Sola Scripture is a lie, end of story.
WOW! That's a lot of evidence you presented. Were you a follower of David Koresh? He didn't believe in sola scriptura either.
Or the Mormons? Or the Jehovahs Witnesses? Or Jim Jones group?
All of those groups reject the truth that we now refer to as "sola scriptura"
It is a common cultic characteristic.
To the people who do not believe Scripture is Words of God ! If anyone ignore Words of God, that person is ignoring God!
You are sometimes quite honest in revealing what kind of faith you have !