Some arguments against Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Jordan Kurecki, May 19, 2014.

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  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.

    If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path?
    Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, "Because God told us so!" But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not. Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect.

    If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.
    Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    yeah. God is the idiot responsible for man's sins.


    see above and add 'moron'.

    Because He thinks He is so bright that He can make omniscient man dance to His tune.

    Add dictatorial to idiot and moron.
     
  3. convicted1

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    We aren't saying....or at least not I...that sinners go around sinning every second of the day. But any good they do is marred by their sin. Look at it like this. You go to a five star restaurant. You order the most elagent meal they have to offer. You ask to watch the chef prepare it, and they allow you. You go back and see the chef coming out of the bathroom. You noticed he didn't wash his hands before coming out of there. As he is preparing your food, he scratches himself, picks his nose and butt, and then blows his nose in his hands and doesn't wash them. He then presents you with your meal. Will you accept it? No. That's the way it is with sinners. Everything the sinner does, it is with fillthy hands. Your food was "good", but filthy hands ruined it. Good deeds done by sinners are ruined by their filthy hands. That's why good deeds aren't good in God's eyes. Their sin....their filthy hands...have them in a state of rebellion...

    God does this via means. We evangelize to call sinners to repentance. We have no clue who His sheep are. The goats want nothing to do with the gospel...it offends them. The gospel calls His sheep out from amongst the goats. They...the sheep...know His voice...


    Contrary to what some may think, election ain't conversion, no more than regeneration is conversion. Election was held in eternity and conversion takes place in time. We're elected unto salvation. Preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish...goats...but the sheep will hear, understand, and come to Him in true God given repentance.

    Coming from the infra-, or sublapsarian view, I see it that God predestined the elect, and the others...the goats....were left to their fallen condition. People blame God...I blame Adam...
     
    #3 convicted1, May 20, 2014
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  4. Inspector Javert

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  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    #5 Earth Wind and Fire, May 20, 2014
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    We should talk privately Brother Penoy....
     
    #6 Earth Wind and Fire, May 20, 2014
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  7. Winman

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    Wow Willis, we actually agree for once. Sinners are able to do good, and do good on a frequent basis, but as you said, sin mars and tears their coat of righteousness so that it is a filthy rag.

    But I must ask, if sinners can do good as you seem to agree with me, why is the ONE thing they can't do is repent and believe the gospel?

    This is a passable argument. Not great, but passable. The NSA uses the same argument to strip search little old ladies and little children at airports, they don't know who the terrorists are. :rolleyes:

    Well, regeneration is conversion, you are either spiritually dead or alive. Once you have been made spiritually alive, what does conversion do for you?

    This is not a passable argument. If God passes you by, then obviously it is his will that you perish. Own it.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Thats true
     
  9. RLBosley

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    Depends on how you define good. Feeding your kids is a "good" thing according to Jesus (Matt 7:11). Yet at the same time Jesus says those same people are evil, not just do evil but intrinsically are evil (also Matt 7:11). Later Jesus asks "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? (Matt 12:34)" Obviously this is a rhetorical question with the answer that they can't. Paul says, quoting the OT, "There is none who does good, there is not even one! (Rom 3:12)"

    So apparently there are multiple senses to the word "good." One sense would be doing good, or right, things that we should do and many do even in their depravity, the other is moral perfection which no one except God has.

    The main point of your statement is though that if man is depraved he cannot be faulted. But why? Because it is different from your sense of justice? Look at Acts 2 and this is clearly seen:

    [Act 2:22-23 NASB] "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    Here Peter is preaching at Pentecost, and he both affirms that Jesus was murdered according to God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge (contrary to the Arminian view of foreknowledge I might add) and that they, those who turned Jesus over to be killed, are responsible. Divine plan and human responsibility are not, apparently, mutually exclusive no matter how much it may strain our brains.

    I also notice this is so similar to the arguement Paul anticipates in Romans 9. [Rom 9:19 NASB] You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

    Paul's answer? [Rom 9:20 NASB] On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

    I think in modern America Paul would say, "Deal with it."

    God not only has ordained the salvation of sinners but the means, which is the proclamation of the gospel. In reality, only the Calvinist has a solid foundation for evangelism. The Calvinist knows that the preaching of God's word and sharing the gospel will accomplish exactly what God intends. He can go out in confidence knowing God's purposes will be accomplished. The non-Calvinist has no such assurance since Jesus is only a potential savior begging people to invite him into their life.

    That's a very narrow view of prayer. We pray more to align ourselves to God than to change his mind. And again, the non-Calvinist has just as bad of a problem. For the non-Calvinist, there is no use in praying for friends or family since God will not actually do anything to cause the salvation of someone, it is up to the human to choose God.





    FTFY

    The TSA "guards" the airports. The NSA is spying on your computers and cell phones.... get your overreaching agencies right. Sheesh! :tongue3:
     
    #9 RLBosley, May 20, 2014
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  10. Winman

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    I disagree with your interpretation of this passage. Peter is not saying that God detemined the Jews would kill Jesus, God does not so much as tempt any man to sin.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    God does not tempt any man to sin, "every man" is tempted when he is drawn away of his "own lust" and enticed. These men killed Jesus because they hated him, not because God determined they would kill him.

    You need to read scripture more carefully, what was determined according to the counsel and foreknowledge of God is that Jesus was "delivered".

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    You have to read this verse correctly. Jesus was "delivered" by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. But the Jews wickedly took him and crucified him of themselves.

    And Jesus was delivered to the Jews, he didn't have to be taken, he could have called on his Father and been rescued from being taken.

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Jesus could have prayed for rescue if he wanted, but how then could God the Father's plan be carried out? It couldn't.

    But the Jews taking Jesus and crucifying him was their own idea, not the Father's.

    Did God know they would take Jesus and kill him? Yes, we are told that God's foreknowledge was involved here (and it describes an event, not knowing a person intimately).

    So, your interpretation makes God the author of sin. God never tempts ANY MAN to sin, even those he uses to bring his plans to pass. He just knows already what they will do and uses it for his own purpose.
     
  11. Winman

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    Oh, and thanks for the info about the NSA and TSA, I wasn't really sure which agency searches old ladies and children at airports.
     
  12. RLBosley

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    I'm shocked. Say it isn't so!! :D

    You're joking right? So the crucifixion was an accident? Even though you give lip service to God "knowing" it would happen, it wasn't part of God's predetermined plan for Christ to be delivered, go through multiple sham trails, be murdered and atone for sin? That wasn't all planned from eternity past?

    Your interpretation only pushes the same problem back a step. Even in your interpretation there was no other possible end result correct? God infallibly knew, from all eternity, precisely what would happen correct? You say my interpretation makes God the author of sin. If so, then yours does as well since God determined to delivery the Son over to wicked men who he knew would murder him. You've made a distinction without a real difference.

    And you mangle what is being said here regarding God's foreknowledge.

    [Act 2:23 NASB] this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    This foreknowledge is inseparable from his predetermined plan. God knows before hand (foreknows) because he determined beforehand (predetermined). Not that God had to look ahead and see what people would do, then react to them. That isn't planning, that's reacting.
     
  13. RLBosley

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    Welcome :laugh:
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Lol....now your my new hero....deal with it! :laugh:
     
  15. RLBosley

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    :laugh:

    That's just how it strikes me. I would never write a paraphrase of the NT but if I did, I would put "deal with it" in Rom 9:20.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Here is a good summary for you....... "Ever and anon the noncalvinist cries, Why doth He yet find fault?" Aaron
     
  17. Winman

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    It be so.

    Nope, scripture tells us God never tempts any man to sin. (Jam 1:13). Now, that's either true, or it's a lie, and if it is true, then God did not cause these Jews in any way to crucify and kill Jesus, they did that because it was their own idea.

    And God foreknowing something does not make him the cause of it. I knew all my children would sin before they were born, that doesn't mean I willed that they sinned or caused them to sin. The same with our heavenly Father, he knows we will sin, but that doesn't make him the cause or an accessory to our sin. God could stop everyone from sinning, but he would have to kill everyone before they sinned, not a very viable solution.

    Yes, God willed that Jesus go WILLINGLY to the cross to die for our sins. And Jesus did go willingly, he told us he did not have to be taken if he did not want to. But the idea to crucify him was strictly the Jews idea. God the Father allowed it to happen so Jesus could die on the Passover for our sins.

    And foreknowledge does not equal determination. As I said, I foreknew all my children would sin, that doesn't mean I caused them to sin. God foreknew we would sin, that doesn't mean he caused us to sin, even if it is completely certain it would happen. Anything perfect foreknowledge knows will certainly happen, that is what is so SUPERNATURAL about it. Anybody can foreknow what they plan and determine to happen, I can foreknow I will have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch today, and go and make them now. Big deal.
     
  18. RLBosley

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    :thumbsup:

    Seems it always will be. Still I think we can be civil(ish lol) and regard each other as brothers. You know... if we are both elect. ;)

    Are you saying it was not God's plan from all eternity for Jesus to go to the cross and die?

    Also, God planning the future does not mean that he himself tempts anyone.

    You are still trying to drive a wedge between God's predetermined plan and foreknowledge. The language in Acts 2 shows that they are inseparable. God knows before hand because he determined before hand.


    The Father never wanted the Son to be crucified? He only passively "allowed" it?

    You foreknow what you'll have for lunch, not because you see before hand somehow, but because you have predetermined to make what you want.

    Same way with God and the elect. God foreknows, not because he looks ahead and somehow sees their choice, but because he has predetermined he would elect them and save them.
     
    #18 RLBosley, May 20, 2014
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  19. Winman

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    Calvinists tell me they do not know who the elect are, so how can you know you are elect?

    I know I am saved because I believed on Jesus Christ to save me. The word of God tells me I am saved.


    God absolutely determined that Jesus would willingly go to the cross. But God did not determine those Jews would take Jesus and crucify him, God never as so much tempts any man to sin.

    God simply knew they would take Jesus and crucify him, just as God knew Joseph's brothers would sell him as a slave when a caravan came by in the OT.

    God doesn't need to tempt anyone, he knows what they will choose to do of their own free will, and he works that into his plan.

    The Jews had tried to kill Jesus on at least two other occasions. On these occasions Jesus did not allow himself to be killed, as it was not the proper time or place. Jesus had to die on the Passover as the Passover Lamb.

    Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Luk 4:29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
    30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

    These two passages prove God did not cause the Jews to kill Jesus, because they had tried at least twice before to kill him, both times Jesus had to escape because it was not the proper time for him to die. The Jews wanted to kill him nevertheless.


    No, I am trying to explain that foreknowledge does not equal predestination. Like I said, I knew beforehand that all my children would sin, but I did not determine or cause them to sin, and it was not my will that they sin.

    God does not want anybody to sin, he simply knows beforehand what they will freely choose to do.

    The Father did want Jesus to die on the cross for our sins, but he did not force Jesus. Jesus chose to be crucified for our sins, he could have requested rescue if he did not want to die for us, and God would have rescued him (Mat 26:53).

    God did not determine or cause the Jews to kill Jesus, they were acting of their own free will. God simply knew beforehand exactly what they would do and used this to bring about his plan.

    Sure, anybody can foreknow what they have determined to do, what is special about that? You can do that. No, foreknowledge is the supernatural ability to know what free agents will freely choose to do before they do it. Now that is special. You can't do that, and neither can I.

    I disagree, I believe God can know what free agents will freely choose to do. This is the only way God cannot be the author of sin. He did not make or cause the Jews to kill Jesus, he freely allowed it (and so did Jesus) so that Jesus could die for our Passover. But God did not make the Jews kill Jesus, they were acting on their own.

    My view does not make God the author of sin as your view does.
     
    #19 Winman, May 20, 2014
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  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    No, I believe it would be far better for us to part company from the Arminian, separate in churches, establish our own houses of worship & teach our children our own set of beliefs. I see these people as no better than Catholics & (perhaps because I came out of the RC), I dont want my family associating with them. I want to raise my kids up to understand scripture the way I do, not the way the Arminian does. Look, I will work with them, make friends with them, eat with them but I dont want to associate with them in my or my families spiritual life.....same goes for Catholics, Jews, etc.
     
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