Some degree of predestination?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Nevada, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Nevada

    Nevada
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    I especially am interested in the growing field of research on persons variously described as:

    psychopaths (the new term)
    sociopaths (the old term)
    Machaevellian
    Borderline
    amoral
    Narcissistic

    Though all of the above are not the same, they're all pretty similar at times. Lie. Cheat. Con. Stand in front of a mirror and stare. :)

    I read a book by Barbara Oakley titled EVIL GENES. She's a scientist or engineer who became fascinated with the topic when her sister became this way, maybe due to MS. Oakley uses the term "Machaevellian" for all and says there is a spectrum. (Mao Tse Tung was at the worst end of the spectrum.)

    Anyway, look what twin studies have shown, and remember, no one is saying it's all predestined. It's as Harvard biologist Edward O. Wilson says; imagine an eroded hill with numerous ruts. Push a marble off the top a hundred times, and it will -tend- to go to the same spot down below.

    http://www.sott.net/article/147814-...ides-More-Proof-that-Psychopathy-Is-Inherited
     
  2. church mouse guy

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    Nevada, man does not know what is good and what is evil. He is born without a conscience. A conscience is developed by teaching to a child what is good. So it is no surprise that we have so many people with no sense of good and evil.

    Actually, human rights are not possible without Christianity, and it is impossible to name a nation that had advanced human rights without Christianity. This idea was sketched out by Dr. John Warrick Montgomery. Lutheran theologian and American lawyer and English barrister, who defeated in debate the people who said that God is dead several decades ago. His lecture is entitled Why Human Rights are Impossible Without Religion, in which he really should have said Christianity instead of Religion.

    If national Law is merely the command of the sovereign, you can see that hundreds of millions are living in nations where good and evil are confused at all levels of society. The only thing that they have to go by, then, is the external universe, the second book, The Book of Nature, so, of course, they are without excuse.

    Here is John Warrick Montgomery's lecture on YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_pEWswNRRg
     
  3. Nevada

    Nevada
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    Considering the "Treaty of Tripoli" was unanimously approved by the US Congress, and "The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom" was unanimoulsy approved by the Virginia legislature, this nation must be damned.

    The former stated the US is not founded upon the Christian religion, and the latter, according to Thomas Jefferson's autobiography, deleted the name "Jesus Christ" and replaced it with "creator", so as to show the USA's welcoming attitude to Muslims, Hidus, and all manner of infidels. Don't blame me; Jefferson wrote it.

    But, then, James Madison believed separating government from religion, "totally", increased the devotion of the people and the piety of the prieshood. He wrote such to a friend and this is easily Googled.

    Yup, Old World Christians think we are heretics.

    Anyway, back to the article. Emotions have a biological basis, and if one feels none upon seeing others suffer, one will be more prone to inflict harm. You are correct that they have free will. But, at the same time, in a very different way.

    It's tricky.
     
  4. church mouse guy

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    I am thinking that a secular society or an Islamic society, for example, would create more than their fair share of psychopaths, but I am wondering if you are saying that there is a biological basis for this? If it is not biological, I would think that the natural state of any human being is total depravity.

    John Warrick Montgomery argues that conscience is socially conditioned so that you have people who are not happy unless they have committed a successful crime, which is Scriptural also in my opinion. He uses the example of Genghis Khan, who liked what he did. The 20th century was one of the darkest in human history.
     
  5. Nevada

    Nevada
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    hmmm,

    without guidance and proper upbringing, most folks would be a bit wild
    some would figure out that behaving honestly would, mathematically, increase their chances of survival and a good life, and that of their group (tribe, in the old days). A group of criminals woulld kill each other off, or break up.

    Someone said a system of bad police and justice is better than none. Look at Russia to see a bad one. It's miles ahead of Ghenghis' day and society.

    Now. Muy importante:

    Brain imagery, statistical analysis, twin studies, show that psychopaths do not FEEL emotions the same, or at all, as us normal people. Ted Bundy pulled a woman's finger off with pliers. That, and other things psychopaths do, are radically different from what normal people are capable of, even those abused as children.

    Some would say they are the Devi'ls people. A sociobiologist would say they are degenerates or mutants. I merely say . . they are different from you and I. In some sense, they merely look human. Like aliens from space, they have 2 arms, 2 legs, etc., but they are not human if we define human as having compassion, altruism, capacity to feel guilt, etc. In fact, teachers and parents of psychopathic children find that teaching them good behavior is nearly impossible. Psychopaths have little ability to feel fear, so what can "punishment" mean to them but nothing?

    The "Devil's People"?

    Not that I understand it all. It's a mystery, although less of one than before science began gleaming clues.
     
    #5 Nevada, Feb 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2013
  6. church mouse guy

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    Nevada, I am not calling for a theocracy but I am calling for the implementation of Christian-based Law. Montgomery says that Blackstone said that no human law should contradict God's law. Look at the example of abortion wherein society has lapsed into heathen law, as well as the deplorable state of marriage as one man and one woman. And the plight of people trapped in the 55 Islamic nations with a stone-age law is horrible. But most of the Orient has always been a terrible place to live and the Gospel went into the Occident from the Middle East instead of the rest of the Orient, as everyone knows.

    But on the case of the psychopaths, unless they have mental disease or brain damage, I think that they are demonic or have an evil conscience, which I think is what you are saying, Nevada, and so thus we agree, correct?

    Proverbs 4:16 (KJV) For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause [some] to fall.
     
  7. 12strings

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    I believe scripture explains such things. "Every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

    I believe that given the circumstances and choice, each of us could potentially perpetrate some great horrors.

    Evidence from history and the present would include:
    -Thousands who approved of and participated in slaughter of Jews under Hitler.
    -Mob mentality that causes occasional sports fans to beat an opposing fan to death.
    -Gang crimes which show blatant disregard for human life.
    -Tribal wars in Africa in which raiding factions sweep into a city and rape and mutilate and kill the women.
     
  8. 12strings

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    I think Romans 1 might give a different perspective, that although people knew there was a god, their hearts were darkened.

    I do agree we all are born with a sinful nature, but we also have a consience, thought that consience can be seared or distorted, even at a very young age, through neglect or abuse, or wrong teaching.
     
  9. 12strings

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    The things you say are probably true, but I would say those people have BECOME this way. All are born sinners, but it is not as though you or I have some great qualitative difference in our genetic make-up that prevents up from being horrible criminals.
     
  10. church mouse guy

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    You know, I am confused a little on that point about the conscience. You quote Romans 1:21 (KJV) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Now the hour's lecture by John Warwick Montgomery mentions that conscience is culturally conditioned. He uses the fictional example of Fagin in Dickens' Oliver Twist wherein Fagin conditions the conscience of the urchin thieves to feel bad if they don't steal a good watch that day. On the other side, he mentions the child who gets spanked if he steals a cookie from the cookie jar so that he feels bad when he steals and as he gets spanked a few times for stealing cookies he eventually feels bad about it and does it less and less and finally stops.

    In my opinion, man only knows good because God has told him was in good in the Scripture: Psalms 119:105 (KJV) NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

    If you like John Warwick Montgomery, a major Missouri Lutheran theologian, you might view his comments on law and Christianity if you have an hour:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_pEWswNRRg
     

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