Some false views of Election examined and refuted

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jarthur001, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. Jarthur001

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  2. Hope of Glory

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    The view that election and salvation are synonymous.
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    3. The view that election took place in eternity, but that it was in view of foreseen repentance and faith.


    According to this view, God, in eternity, looked down through the ages and saw who would repent and believe. those who He foreknew to repent and believe were elected to salvation. This view is wrong in that it makes the ground of election to be something in the sinner rather than something in God.


    Election is by God. God knows all things. Therefore God did not need to look down in time to learn anything from man. God knows because God made all things and decreed His will to take place. This view has God looking to what man will do, in order to learn something from man. There is no way that this could be the case if you believe the Bible. Read Eph 1:4-6 where election and predestination are said to be "According to the good pleasure of His will" and "To the praise of the glory of His grace".


    This view is one of the most popular views among those that try to change the meaning of election. However it comes with many objections.
    Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, and God did not see these graces in any sinner apart from His purpose to give them.


    Acts 5:13 "When they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, `Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life'"


    Acts 11:18. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth"

    .
    Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    This view also makes the human race differ by nature, whereas, the Bible says, we are all by nature the children of wrath and all clay of the same lump. This idea would make some of mankind smarter or wiser than others, and this would be the reason for belief by some and not others. Yet the Bible clearly says we are all sinners and in the same boat headed for damnation.


    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


    Men are made to differ in the new birth. After the new birth is when our eyes are open to the truth.


    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


    Also, this view perverts the Scriptural meaning of the word "foreknowledge".


    To be foreknown, is more then just knowing about a person, as it is seen in the Bible. Foreknowing is the idea of an intimate relationship. The relationship is between God and the believer. The Greek words found here prove this meaning. One could easily replace the word "foreknow", with “loved before hand”. The meaning being this: God loved His elect before they were even born. This is the same idea seen in Romans Chapter 9 when it speaks of God loving and choosing Jacob before he was born, not having a chance to do right or wrong, so that Jacob could not claim it was something good in him.


    Romans 9: 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)


    Last, this view is open to the strongest objection that can be made against the Biblical view.


    It is often asked, "If certain men are elected and saved, then what is the use to preach to those who are not elected?" Or."If God knows who is going to repent and believe, then why preach to those, who according to His foreknowledge, will not repent and believe?" Will some repent and believe whom He foreknew would not repent and believe? If so, He foreknew a lie.


    The elect, prior to their conversion, are known only to God. We are to preach the gospel to every creature because He has commanded it. He will take care of the results.


    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


    1 Cor 3:5-6 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.


    John 6:37-45 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets,
     
  4. Hope of Glory

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    What is "salvation"?

    Does this mean that saved people are no longer sinners?
     
  5. Jarthur001

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    Hello Hope of Glory...

    Sinners ...yes. Believers are but sinners saved by grace and justified by the power of the blood as if we had not sin.
     
    #5 Jarthur001, Jun 14, 2007
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  6. Jarthur001

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    good point...

    Election is TO salvation. The believer still must believe.

    But this is what was said in point one...
    right?
     
  7. Eric B

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    I think he may be getting confused, that when people speak of election pertaining to Israel, they are speaking specifically of the universal misuse of Romans 9 and it's "vessels" to teach God predestining some to Heaven and others to Hell. (Then some will disclaim this in favor of a concept of "preterition", but to use that chapter that way suggests double predestination regardless of what they say). So everyone knows election is open to gentiles now as well as Jews. It's the "vessels" that originally referred to Israel (with Pharaoh as the vessel of wrath), and on the other hand, Unbelieving Israel is now the vessel of wrath, with those of all nations who receive Christ as the vessels of mercy. Since, as the answer to #3 acknowledges "we are all by nature the children of wrath and all clay of the same lump...the Bible clearly says we are all sinners and in the same boat headed for damnation", then individuals are not originally fixed to the group, but all started out in one group, and then some crossed over to the other group. Else, that would contradict the denial that "the human race differ by nature...This idea would make some of mankind smarter or wiser than others, and this would be the reason for belief by some and not others"; for some would be smarter; only it would have simply been God who created them smarter, since this is argued as an eternal decree of predestination.
     
  8. webdog

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    I see nothing from that article that refutes #2 whatsoever.
     
  9. Jarthur001

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    Is this what you believe election is? Do you hold to only the jews are choosen?
     
    #9 Jarthur001, Jun 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2007
  10. Jarthur001

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    Romans 9 does not need to speak about what type of election it is addressing, for that is not the point of the passage.

    The point is to show that election is real and does happen...and be it nation, person, land or any matter at all, God in full soverignty elects whom He wishes...For He is the potter...and who are you to say He cannot do as He wishes?

    That is the point. Based on this truth..we can then look at other passages that address election of men.

    I disagree with you on this statment...

    Webdog does not know this. :)

    I however do know this is true.
     
  11. Eric B

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    The mistake many make with the chapter is taking its affirmation of God's sovereignty, and then projecting double predestination or the modified preterition doctrine into other scriptures on election and damnation using this chapter as the final proof-text. Just because God could could create people for Hell doesn't mean that He does.

    Also, webdog didn't actually say he believed #2. He just said the page didn't refute it. This is because he answers it with the fact that Gentiles are elected now, but that does not contradict Israel being elect in the past, which is what I think that doctrine is teaching. So one could not believe in it, and still believe a particular response did not adequately refute it.
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    I'll wait and see if webdog agrees. :)
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You exemplify a complete lack of understanding of the view you are trying to address. Such a view in no wise makes the sinner the grounds of his election or salvation. Stating that it does may give you a talking point, but that does not change the fact that it is a figment of your own imagination that has no factual basis whatsoever.

    How is man shown to be the grounds for something that man neither designed, implemented, or satisfied the demands of the law? Your argument starts from the presupposition that if man is the first cause of his actions, and if man fulfils any conditions for salvation, that man is somehow seen as the grounds of his own salvation. That is simply as ludicrous as it is in error. You apparently limit God, implying that man cannot be the first case of his intents without making man’s intents the grounds of his salvation. It is as if though God cannot create man with the ability to be a first cause of his moral intents, allowing man to be created as a responsible agent without man being seen as the grounds of his salvation. There is no logical or biblical connection that links the two together as you have done. They are separate issues completely.

    Just because man is limited in his foreknowledge to things of necessity, God is not. You try to limit God’s foreknowledge to things of necessity, as if though due to mans involvement, man is creating something God could not know before. Who are you to limit God in this fashion? Is it not clearly possible for an Omniscient God to foreknow matters of perfect choice as well as those things of necessity, allowing for freedom of the will to exist, without such knowledge necessitating the outcome? I believe it is not only entirely possible, but factual in light of the fact of the blameworthiness and praiseworthiness of man’s formed intents and subsequent actions as it relates to God as being Just.

    To reject the notion that man is the sole responsible agent for his intents, is to hold to a system of absolute necessitated fatalism. Such a notion mandates double predestination, a thought at antipodes with Scripture and reason. To believe as you are suggesting is to paint a picture of a Holy and Just God who takes pleasure in damning the wicked who in reality had no other possible fate than damnation. Scripture emphatically states that God takes no pleasure in the fate of the wicked.

    The passages you mention in no way add proof to the necessitated system you paint. You mention the following verses. "According to the good pleasure of His will" and "To the praise of the glory of His grace". Can you not see that if one is to accept your position as truth, that the converse notion of double predestination or the predestination of the damned is true as well? Are you saying that God must indeed take pleasure in the death of the wicked as well, for God created them and predestined them to their end as well? You paint a most horrible blight upon the character of a Holy God with your necessitated fatalism, making a Holy and Just God the creator of all evil.
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Hellp HP,

    For you to say this, only shows you have not taken your view to its logical end.

    You need only ask....what comes.

    Did God make before He knew?

    and that would be the point. Man did not. God designed and decreed salvation. This was not based on what man has done..as seen in this false view.


    If God elections by seeing what happens, this indeed is true. However, election is to salvation, which means God chooses 1st followed by faith in the believe. Sorry...this is not my own words but the Bibles.


    Are you speaking to me or God?


    I have no say so in this. If you must get mad at anyone...get made at God. It was His plan. But...its not a good idea to be mad at God...just follow Him.

    One may want to look up the words choosing and election in the Bible and see how many times that God says it is His pleasure and will that is the driving factor of choice. You will not find mans will addressed in this choice. If man was the driving force behind election, would we not see this addressed in the election passages? I would think so.


    Of course He could have choosen to do this. However, if you go by Gods Word, you will not find this to be the case. Would it not be much easier to just believe the Bible?

    I have given support...and will give more i needed. Please don't let your own ideas blind you from the truth.

    Indeed. God knows because He decrees it to be. He need to wait for me to do something before He knew...now did he? God know way before you was born...and made you that way. God know way before he made the non-believe...and made him that way as well.

    Maybe I was not clear. God is not limited in His knowledge at all...at any time....in any way. God always knew what He knows. It is not I that says He needed to look down in time to learn what would happen...in order that He may elect. No...that my friend would limit God to not knowing before HE LOOKED.

    I am James...and God is free to elect He wills....based on HIS PLEASURE!! do you agree?

    Of couse He knows. But that "forknowing" was not based on what man did. It was based on what God made and will do. Its called God decrees.


    Elction has nothing to do with God being just. This is where you fail to see what election is.

    My God happens to be King over all things. I think I'll let Him do as He wishes. I don't think its a wish thing to say God cannot do such things.


    If this be the case, it would be easy to show in Scripture. post your verses that show this.



    See what I mean? This seems to be something you have yet to deal with. Elction has nothing to do with God being just.

    another thing you must understand. This is the 2nd time you talked about fate in this post. The God of the Bible is not fate. Fate is a Greek God based idea. The Bible says Yawah is our God, not fate.

    Yawah takes full pleasure in His will...and it is His will that elects
    1st...the thread is young..hange in there. :)

    2nd..lets look at this one verse.
    where in this verse do you see salvation is something up to man?

    wait how about faith. yes...good point. Faith is a gift from God.
    Grace....grace is from God.
    Works? no...not works.
    Who is the workman here? God...it is His workmanship.
    created...or made ...by the creator...in Christ.
    whih God ordained to happen before we were given faith.

    I think slavation is all about God...what do you think?

    well..lets look over in the next chapter..

    If it be true, let it stand as is. Your idea to change Gods Word, because you don't like it...just don't cut it.



    Tell you what. Ask God if you can change the Bible to read as you wished...and then get back with us.
    :)
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: What ever happened to the old cliché that God’s ways are higher than our ways? Do you think for a minute that I can explain to you the mind of God? If you think that you can with your finite mind explain to us how God thinks, understands and plans.

    Let’s say that God must know before He makes. How does this support your necessitated fatalism? You have to inject an unsupported presupposition into the equation, i.e., that if God foreknows it MUST be a necessitated happening. Show us how you establish that point. Why cannot God know matters of perfect choice as well as those things of necessity? Why do you insist on limiting an Infinite God to a foreknowledge such as our finite foreknowledge that is indeed limited to things of necessity? Is not our God capable of foreknowing any differently than mere finite man? I believe our God is.
    Quote:
    HP: How is man shown to be the grounds for something that man neither designed, implemented, or satisfied the demands of the law?

    HP: But JA, you have not established that God’s decree was not in fact made in light of God foreseeing matters of perfect choice. You simply beg the question, assuming that position without first establishing the evidence to support it.


    Quote:
    HP: Your argument starts from the presupposition that if man is the first cause of his actions, and if man fulfils any conditions for salvation, that man is somehow seen as the grounds of his own salvation.

    HP: I beg to disagree with you. Again, you fail to establish your point. You simply are assuming it without evidence.
    This is also Scripture. “Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.” “unless ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”


    Quote:
    HP: You apparently limit God, implying that man cannot be the first case of his intents without making man’s intents the grounds of his salvation.
    HP: Who is ‘mad’ at anyone?? Is someone automatically ‘mad’ in your opinion if they confront the inaccuracies of fatalistic determination?
    When you say that God cannot know matters of perfect choice, you are indeed limiting an Omniscient God. Limiting God is exactly what you are doing.


    HP: Some things are clearly understood by God granted intuitive reason. There is no need to tell a reasonable man that if God holds you accountable and punishable by eternal separation in a devils’ hell, that indeed you are NOT under a system of necessitated fatalism. Even the heathens or a child’s God instilled understanding of justice testifies clearly to that fact.


    Quote:
    HP: It is as if though God cannot create man with the ability to be a first cause of his moral intents, allowing man to be created as a responsible agent without man being seen as the grounds of his salvation.

    HP: Scriptures do not testify to any system of necessitated fatalism as you propose. You are forced to inject the unsupported presupposition into every scripture you read that God is not able to foreknow matters of perfect choice. The Bible does not in any way support such a presupposition. The mere fact of God holding man responsible and blameworthy or praiseworthy is a crystal clear indication that such is not the case.

    HP: You talk all around the question at hand, but never address the important issue. If God is not limited in His foreknowledge, can God foreknow matters of perfect choice, and can God elect according to that foreknowledge? If not, why not. Please do not take us down the rabbit trail of whether or not God knows before He creates, or which comes first the chicken or the egg. They are both meaningless sidetracks to the issues at hand……….unless you can show us your ability to understand the mind of God.
    Quote:
    HP: Who are you to limit God in this fashion?

    HP: That is my point exactly JA. I agree. His pleasure is plainly set forth. “Whosoever will” may come freely and drink of the waters of eternal life. His pleasure obviously to me includes foreknowing matters of perfect choice.

    HP: Who are you to tell us what God’s foreknowledge is not based on? The only decrees concerning His forknowledge is your decrees that God’s foreknowledge is limited. This is living proof to the list that indeed you do limit the foreknowledge of God by decreeing what it can and cannot be based on.


    HP: Scripture tells us that God is Just. Are you proposing that God can deny Himself and act contrary to His attributes?
     
  16. skypair

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    John 1:12-13. Here is a perfect example of what John would have been thinking about there. Do you remember Simon Magus? He is one who "believed" but wasn't "regenerated" (no one was until Peter and John came to Samaria). At that time, Simon "proved" the reason for his profession -- he really wanted to have the Spirit indwelling and power (1:13) without the life-changing commitment of "receiving" Christ (1:12).

    Therefore, when John penned 1:13, he was thinking about those like Simon who would think that it was by their own desire that one could receive "regeneration" (which is what 1:13 is talking about).

    The point would be that you MUST commit to Christ (1:12) -- THEN it is up to God's will that we receive the Spirit of regeneration.

    skypair
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: We are indeed born, not by the will of the flesh or by the will of man, but of God. Man does not by his own will contrive a plan of salvation, nor could he. Man could never atone for one solitary sin. Just the same, man plays a part in salvation. The part we play is not thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’', but is thought in the sense of ‘not without which.’ We are NOT saved for the sake of man’s willingness to commit to the conditions of salvation set forth by God, but neither will any man be saved ‘apart from’ their willing obedience to the commands of God to repent, believe, and remain faithful to the end.

    The grounds of salvation is the grace of God through the means of the shed blood of Christ in the atonement. The grounds of salvation is made effective in our lives as we commit voluntarily to the conditions of salvation, which are again initially repentance and faith. The grounds of salvation make salvation possible, while the conditions make it applicable to our lives personally.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    "HP: You exemplify a complete lack of understanding of the view you are trying to address. Such a view in no wise makes the sinner the grounds of his election or salvation. Stating that it does may give you a talking point, but that does not change the fact that it is a figment of your own imagination that has no factual basis whatsoever."

    GE:

    Listen to a man talking, not realising, talking of himself.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Jarthur001, you have patience! I admire you! I would have sent some people places were I to keep up with theirs! I rather stay out of these conversations on election. A horse can only be brought up to the water trough. Many great men of God were faithful to their extremely exacting calling in this matter, yet these people have made no attempt to spare them a moment's attention. I wouldn't have bothered. No, God help you. Only his grace can be enough in your task.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    I don't want to, but cannot help ...
    We are indeed born, not by the will of the flesh or by the will of man, but of God. Though man oft by his own will contrives a plan of salvation, he could not. Man could never atone for one solitary sin. Just the same, man thinks he plays a part in salvation.

    Man may even think the part he plays is not thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’', but meantimes is thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’!

    "We are NOT saved for the sake of man’s willingness to commit to the conditions of salvation set forth by God", it is denied, while in fact, we ARE saved for the sake of man’s willingness to commit to the conditions of salvation set forth by God! For will any man be saved ‘apart from’ receiving the willingness to obedience to the commands of God to repent, believe, and remain faithful to the end? Will any man be saved 'with' aversion to obedience to the commands of God to repent, believe, and remain faithful?

    The grounds of salvation is the grace of God through the means of the shed blood of Christ in the atonement. The grounds of salvation is made effective in our lives as, we commit voluntarily to the conditions of salvation, which are again initially repentance and faith -- 'we commit' to, these graces and gifts from and of, God, through, these graces and gifts from and of, God.
    The grounds of salvation make salvation possible, while the conditions make it applicable to our lives personally. We - man - don't make salvation possible; we - man - don't fulfill its conditions, nor apply its conditions - they (grace and forgiveness), make salvation possible, and, they, apply all conditions and effects, to our lives personally. Salvation is all, of God, and from God, and is all, returned to God, of Himself, through himself, unto Himself, for, his own glory and sovereignty (not only out of, His own glory and sovereignty).
     
    #20 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jun 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2007

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