Some hard questions for the catholics

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by faithcontender, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. faithcontender

    faithcontender
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    Some of the catholics here on this board boast about one holy catholic church.

    Is she really united? Is she really holy? Why is it that if the nation is majority catholics, the nation is poor, government is corrupt and full of division.

    I take as an example about my own country and other catholic countries.

    Some did say that they are poorly cathechized but in those countries majority of the private school are roman catholic.

    Does the gospel they preach has no power to change a man. As far as i know the gospel has power. And if you are truly taught according to scriptures, there must be change.

    Is it because they have a form of godliness but denies the power thereof?

    I am right here outside our country which is mostly buddhist. Someone asked me why our country is like that, knowing that majority are christians ( catholics).

    I of course told him, that they are not the true christians.
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    faithcontender,

    Church officials cannot catechize people into salvation. When they do the sinner still remains the same and he only able to recite Christian ideas.

    Unless a person receives Christ [John 1:12] He cannot change them from the inside out. To received God's Son is to enjoy the Presence and guidance of the Spirit of God. [I John 3:9] It is then only that the 'incorruptible seed' the Holy Spirit abides forever. [I Peter 1:23]
     
  3. mioque

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    "Is she really united? Is she really holy? Why is it that if the nation is majority catholics, the nation is poor, government is corrupt and full of division."
    let's see, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Italy, Vatican City, Belgium, Luxemburg, Austria and France.
    A case can be made a number of these countries are somewhat poor and you can say that the government of a number of others is plagued by division and corruption, but not both at once.
     
  4. MikeS

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    Well, I know of no case where people have boasted, any more than one would boast of the sun shining. It's not our doing! And, BTW, it's one, holy, catholic and apostolic...
    I know Boettner makes a similar point, so that's one strike against you. [​IMG]

    To make your case, you have to show (1) a statistically significant number of Protestant paradises (I assume that's your point), and (2) show that the differences are due to the difference in religion and no other factor.

    One more point -- who ever said Catholicism would be a religion of the rich? Is there, according to the gospel, something wrong with being a poor country? There are a lot more souls to be saved in poor countries...
     
  5. CatholicConvert

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    Yes, She is but one Church with one set of teachings. There is but one Faith. Now there are many who are in the Church, either through birth or through other means (such as the many Communists who entered the Church to subvert and try to destroy Her), who are de jure Catholics, but are not Catholics de facto. but that does not change the fact that the Church has but one unified set of doctrines and moral teachings.

    Perhaps that is God's mercy on the nation. Look at what our riches in America have don to us as a people. We will make and sell ANYTHING (prostitution, drugs, pornography, manufacturing with toxic wastes as the leftovers) as long as it makes a dollar. This is the richest country in the world, yet "Christians" give less to the Church than the unchurched give to charity. In poor Catholic countries, the "plate" isn't even passed. There is a basket and the faithful always put something in it, even if it is just a couple of cents.

    How are Christians in this country any different than non Christians. Our whole thrust in life is the acquisition of material goods, as if that is the sole purpose of life. Churches cannot get volunteers to do anything because we are so overwhelmed with stupid amuzements which waste our precious time.

    I could go on and on, but the having of riches is NOT necessarily the blessing of God.

    YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!

    Do you KNOW of any government any more corrupt and wicked than ours? Our government agents stay busy licensing perversion, stealing money from the productive to give to the lazy and shiftless, lying to us about what they are doing, misspending our money, making sweetheart deals that protect the rich, supporting dictators around the world....oh, man, I could go on and on about this one too.

    The world is full of SINNERS......or did you forget it? And what Bible verse do you have to show that the kingdom would be a paradise on earth during this time?

    That was a really weak and silly excuse to try to trash the Church.
     
  6. InTheNameOfLove

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    Do I agree with Catholic Doctrine? A great deal of of it no, and I do find it conceited that you call it the "true church" when indeed it is all true Christians, Catholic or not, who make up the true church. However, I think all of us are responsible for the separation of Christians because of different doctrinal opinions and beliefs. We are all supposed to be as one family, one Christian body, and yet, I see petty doctrinal issues separating Christians almost daily. We need to stop referring to "the church" (whichever church you may be referring to) as the "true church", as if it is infallible as God Himself.
     
  7. CatholicConvert

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    So there is no such thing as an objective set of truths, doctrinal and moral, which God wishes us to obey?

    Everyone can make up his own version of Christianity as long as it has the name "Jesus" stapled to it?
     
  8. MikeS

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    Thousands of true churches, all teaching something different (often contradictory). What a concept!
     
  9. CatholicConvert

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    No Mike.....

    Not concept.

    A stinking sorry reality in la la land. An open wound to the Body of Christ, a scandal before pagans, a confusion to the world, and a situation which will someday be resolved when Christ moves in power to clean up His Bride, bring in the sheep outside the fold, and re-establish the same ONE, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church He founded upon St. Peter.


    Brother Ed
     
  10. gb93433

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    Thousands of true churches, all teaching something different (often contradictory). What a concept! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and some of those priests are Christians and some are not. Of course we know that other denominations have the same thing happening.
     
  11. Armando

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    Are you saying that poverty is a reflection of true religion. What about morality:

    Is it fair to say that countries that have been traditionally protestant have better morality then catholics countries? Like Holland [​IMG]

    By the way, Japan is doing good too you know $$$b

    Armando
     
  12. mioque

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    "Is it fair to say that countries that have been traditionally protestant have better morality then catholics countries?"
    Actually the Netherlands is traditionally considered 50/50. Half Dutch Reformed, half Roman Catholic.
     
  13. A_Christian

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    Any people that has had the truth and refuses to believe it or has turned away from it ALWAYS finds itself in one big mess with seemingly no way out. The Neatherlands is a great example---
    Haiti is another, Germany is another, Spain is
    another, Italy is another, France---forgive my
    french...

    The United States has been digging a hole for itself for years. Kennedy, I believe was allowed to be assassinated because of his general corruption in his personal life and promotion of "Camelot" at a time when the United States could have done BETTER things. He was a promoter of SOCIAL government and SOCIAL reforms when prayer and supplication were in order. He also allowed prayer to fall into disfavor in the "Public" eye and would result in even reading
    the Bible "Publically" a crime. Then came abortion, now the end of "In GOD WE Trust".

    Just look at US history. Each time the nation got too high on itself, GOD allowed it to get a spanking. Both the depression and WWII were the
    result of the of Social changes and decadence.
    The Civil War was a direct result of the arrogance of human nature to enslave and consider one race inferior. When it was finally shown to be Biblcally immoral, man and government promoted evolutionary logic that to placed Negros
    lower on the "social" ladder.

    True believers, I feel see some cause and results of sin and its promotion. Non-Christians just see the need for more reforms and more money and
    more personal pleasure. And so the rat race just
    continues until the final curtain... However, some will listen and some will turn to GOD. The
    rest are LOST.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Friend,

    We both come from the Philippines. Let me tell you, with love and respect, that what corruption and whatever division and poverty you see in our country cannot all be blamed on Roman Catholicism or religion, at this point of our country's history. That is Marxist hype, believe me I taught that back in the 60's in small villages in our country.

    You see the same things in South American countries, in what you would call third world countries. Now, why ? For the answer you have to go back in time to when the Spanish Conquistadores first came to our country and the South American countries.

    Religion and government came together. The Sword and the Cross. To lands where the existing governments were villages and land had no paper ownership. They came with their cannons, and broadwords and friars and stories of hell and punishment or heaven and bliss depending on one's submission to their authority.

    The result was feudalism. The Friars owned as much land as the State, and you have a subjugated people. In our case, our indigenous culture have been hybrided.

    But that was a long, long time ago. Today, our people remain poor, our government corrupt and divided no longer because of a foreign power, but out of choice . Disagree with me if you will, but that's it.

    The literacy rate of the Philippines is among the highest in Asia, we have tens of thousands of college graduates every year, but we have voters with the minds of morons. Therein lies the rub.

    Cheers.
     
  15. CalvinG

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    Much as I would like to blame Catholicism for its errors, I do not see this criticism as fair. Let us criticize the papacy, their catechism, anot other things but let us not criticize them for the people they have evengelized.

    Catholics have done a better job evangelizing the developing world than we Protestants have. I agree that it is not always a bad thing to be poor. Poverty concentrates one's attention on what is really important. Because even those without many economic resources still have God, still have their families, and still have useful work to do.

    Corruption can be seen in any fallable institution. Individuals sin for personal gain where corruption is allowed. That does not mean that they were taught by their local priest to be corrupt. Or even that the priest has inadequately tried to instill good Christian moral values in the person behaving corruptly.

    CalvinG
     
  16. faithcontender

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    Hi all,

    I have read all your replies and i understand your point.

    But my main point is: If at majority of the population are true christians then there must be at least a social change. Their influence may at least be felt in the nation.

    Christians are the light of the world and the salt of the earth.Therefore if majority are christians there must be a lot of salt to preserve it from corruption. There must be a greater light to expose the darkness.

    But alas, our country is considered a christian nation but why is it that the nation is so corrupt and the immorality is so high.

    Does not the bible says that "blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord". If a certain country has many christians, they could have the blessings of God.

    I believe the problem is, many are professing christians. And the catholic church has many of her members who are christian in name because of their false gospel. The bible says if you are truly in Christ there is a new creation, there is a change.

    Among those catholics where are the change. Some of them are really dead spiritually. Their church consider them christians because they receive baptism as infants. This is where the problem is because Catholicism teaches that infant baptism can make them christian.

    And when the non-christian consider them as christian the name of Christ is blasphemed. Christianity now is seen by non christian as there is no power.
     
  17. trying2understand

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    What social changes are you looking for? And do you expect these changes to come from the government or individual peoples lives?

    What immorality do you see?

    Abortion? Divorce?

    Are you looking to the government to change these things or the people individually?

    What blessings are you talking about? Material wealth or Spiritual blessings?

    The Catholic Church is very active among the poor, including the poor of the Philipines.

    I personally know this to be true because I am involved with the Christian Foundation For Children and Aging.

    http://www.cfcausa.org/

    I sponsor an elderly gentleman in the Philippines and we communicate by letter. He has described his living conditions to me and they are quite poor indeed. But at the same time he has also described the many blessing which God has given him in the way of family and friends.

    Perhaps you are confused about what blessings it is that God promises to us.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Countryman,

    The Philippines is no more a Christian nation than America is. Israel is a nation created by God from the loins of one man, Abraham, and he called Israel his chosen, yet, study your Bible and you will see that even national Israel can hardly be called a Godly nation - in practice - then, and now.

    The fact is that there is no such thing as a Christian nation in existence physically. There is a Christian nation, a spiritual Israel, though. These are people who should have change, not outwardly, but inwardly, being called new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17).

    True. But again the light of the world and the salt of the earth are spiritual Israel, God's people scattered like salt all over the earth, pinpricks of light in a spiritually dark universe, the reason why the man of sin is held in check because "He who letteth" indwells every child of God, therefore, this fallen world is not sooner destroyed.
    Friend:

    It is easy to point a finger at someone or something and blame him, her, or it, but the fact remains that while one finger points at the target, three are pointing right back at the pointer, at the accuser. Let us not make them our problem, rather, let us examine ourselves, if we be in the faith, and make sure of our election and calling.
    [
    Really, bro, God does not need us to defend Him, nor to feel bad for Him. He can protect His Name, we need His protection. Among Catholics there are those who are regenerated people of God, and what we need to do is pray for them, that God will now cause their conversion from a dead religion to a living one.

    God bless.
     
  19. faithcontender

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    Hi Kabayan,

    Its good to see your posts though i may disagree with you in some point.




    When i said our country is considered a christian nation, i'm just merely quoting others about it.
    I also know from the bible that there is no such thing as christian nation in the physical sense of the word. I just only want to highlight that majority of Filipinos are considered christian by others because of catholicism.



    But in this case, the catholics claim that they are christians because of their infant baptism and since our country are majority composed of catholics, if they are true christians there must be change among them which in turn influence our society for the better. Why there is hardly any?

    And what is the rootcause: The catholic church made them believe that they are christian without demanding repentance and faith.



    I'm not judging anybody i'm just looking for the fruit. "Ye shall know them by their fruits wether they are my disciples or not". "IF any man be in Christ He is a new creature old things are passed away old things become new" 2 Cor 5:17

    I know i'm saved because of his grace. And because Christ is with me there is a change in me. And this happened because someone preach the true gospel to me. There is no salvation without preaching the gospel.

    Roman
    1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


    1 Cor.
    1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Romans
    10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!




    There are maybe regenerated people of God in the catholic church. But if that catholic believe that baptism regenerates and saves them they are not true christian at all. They are not completely trusting Christ but their baptism.

    One more thing, we are not only commanded to pray but to go and preach the gospel to them so that they might hear the true gospel and thereby truly get saved.
     
  20. thessalonian

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    " I believe the problem is, many are professing christians. And the catholic church has many of her members who are christian in name because of their false gospel. The bible says if you are truly in Christ there is a new creation, there is a change. "

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news to you but I see an awful lot of lax Protestants also. That men are disobedient is no surprize. Look at the Jews going through the desert who had many great signs performed for them and they still disobeyed. By your logic the Jews carried a false religion about because they were disobedient. Adam and Eve the same deal. They disobeyed God so was God giving them false religion. Your arguements might make some sense by human standards when we are looking for perfect people in God's Church but it is quite evident that God expected that within his Church even there would be much disobediece. You baptism of infants objection is filled with much false understanding. A great emphasis is put on parents raising the children in the ways of the Lord as Psalm 78 commands. Yes, they are in Christ when they are baptized but we do not adhere to the Once Saved Always Saved lie. Therefore the children must be instructed in the faith or they will turn from it. This is clear from proverbs. This obligation of the parents is no small one but has been greatly neglected in recent times. I do think you are doing a lot of broad brushing about Catholics however. There are alot more faithful Catholics than you are leading us to think though certainly fewer than I would like. You seem to think you can see inside hearts. Fortunately for us we have God as our judge and not you.
    God bless.
     

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