Some questions for anti-calvinists #5

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by TCassidy, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    5. Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints. That does not mean that they will never fall into sin, but that all those who are saved will never lose their salvation and will persevere unto the end.

    Do non-calvinists believe that some saved people will lose their salvation and go to hell?
     
  2. Wes Outwest

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    If man can lose faith in any object of faith, there is the possibility that man can lose faith in God.

    In one of the letters to the 7 churches of Revelation, there is an indication that names can be blotted from the book of life. Revelation 20:14,15 tells us that those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. If names can be blotted FROM, then they are not found IN.

    So Yes, I believe that some number of people whose names get written in the book of life, may get their name blotted from the book of life and therefore lose their salvation!
     
  3. whetstone

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    The book of life and lambs book of life are two different books. This may help your flawed understanding of eternal security.
     
  4. TCassidy

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    Okay, so far no answers from the anti-calvinist crowd. Maybe tomorrow some of them will give it a try.
     
  5. whetstone

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    well wes had answers. but only the first two are anything I would call 'worth posting.'
     
  6. Timtoolman

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    I agree here but what irks me is the calvnist would label me an arminian even though J. Arminian did not believe in eternal security. I consider this a dishonest statement by many calvinist. If you don't fit the label they try to make you so they can resort to arguement 23 (or whatever) that refutes arminians. [​IMG]
     
  7. icthus

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    Lets see Scripture. The Lord Himself says:

    "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels" (Rev.3:5)

    This says to me that if you "overcome", then your name will remain in the Book of Life. The very statement tells me that there are those who will not "overcome", otherwise why make such a statement.

    We have the account in the Old Testament, when Israel made the golden calf, and how Moses pleaded with God: "Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written."(Exodus 32:32), and God replies: "And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book"(v.33) What do you think God meant here?

    For my own personal position. I have been a Christian since Feb. 1982, and for about 18 years of that time I have believed in the position that it is possible to loose your salvation. However, I am now in the position where I am leaning more towards the "Eternal Security" camp, as there are a number of Scriptures that have opened my eyes. Like, for example, when Jesus says in John 10:28, "and I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish...". The Greek text is different here. It says: "kai ou_me apolontia eis ton aiona". Firstly, the use of the double negative in the Greek "ou_me" (either, "in no wise"; or "no, not at all"), and then the phrase, "eis ton aiona", that is, "for ever" (the same language is used in chapter 11:26, "shall never die, for ever"). The use of such strong language, and that by Christ Himself with regards "Eternal Life", has made me rethink my position on this whole issue. I would appear at this time that I was wrong for some 18 years or more!
     
  8. whetstone

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    The word 'arminian' doesn't appear in this thread until you mentioned it.
     
  9. whetstone

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    Again- the book of life is different than the lambs book of life. I just want you to understand that. I see that you are leaning towards the eternal security camp- and I'm happy for you. I just want you to understand that the book of life is the book containing the names of those alive, and the lambs book of life is the book with those who are born again. Having your name blotted from the book of life means you will die. There is no mention of anyone being blotted from the lambs book of life in Revelation.
     
  10. Michael Hobbs

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    There is no act or circumstance that can make me NOT my father's son. I can lose fellowship and blessings but I will always be his son. His blood runs through my veins. His essence is within me.

    There is no act or circumstance that can make me NOT my Father's son. I can lose fellowship and blessings but I will always be His son. His blood has covered me. His Spirit is within me.
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Mike;
    You need to study the jewish law a bit more I'd say. You can be disowned just as some Jews were. What makes you think you're so special...
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Tcassidy
    Perseverance isn't perseverance if God allows you to fall in to sin. So are you claiming that God lets you sin after He forced you to become a Christian?. Couldn't he force you to obey him in that perseverance?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike :D
     
  13. TCassidy

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    I agree that labels often get in the way of honest, sincere discussions. (Like your labeling me a "Calvinist" when I am a Particular Baptist! :D )

    However, I would disagree that James Arminius did not believe in eternal security. In fact the only difference he had with the Calvinism of the Dutch Reformed Church (his church of ordination) was that he believed election was by the "foreknowledge of God" as opposed to the classic Calvinist position that election was by the "determinate foreknowledge of God." He agreed with the other 4 points of Calvinism and was a strong proponent of eternal security.

    It was only after Arminius died that his followers included their own disagreements with Calvinism in their Remonstrance. But even they did not make a definitive statement regarding eternal security. They admitted they didn't really know and that they needed more study on that issue.

    But, thank you for your honest and sincere answer, and I too agree. None of the saved will ever be lost. I can add my hearty "AMEN" to that. [​IMG]
     
  14. TCassidy

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    Amen and amen! Well said! We have God's promise that "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." In order to deny that we are eternally secure in Christ we would have to call God a liar!
     
  15. Michael Hobbs

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    Human laws (including Jewish laws) don't override God's laws. Yes, I can be disowned but I would still physically be my father's son. I cannot be un-born from my family.

    Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    Scriptures show that salvation is more than just the single element of faith. Salvation requires the following (and probably some I've forgotten):
    </font>
    • God's mercy</font>
    • God's grace</font>
    • God's love</font>
    • Jesus' blood</font>
    • conviction of the Holy Spirit</font>
    • the Word of God</font>
    • our broken and contrite spirit</font>
    • our faith</font>
    Our faith is just a small part of the requirements. Our faith doesn't save us or keep us saved. But we must have faith to be saved.
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Only in your imagination!
     

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