Son Of Perdition

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brice, Oct 7, 2005.

  1. Brice

    Brice
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    John 17:12 "but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled".

    I know many say this is Judas. I'm in that category, but are there any other options? In Matthew it refers to his repenting. If he repents, why is he still refered to as the "son of perdition"?
     
  2. bapmom

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    where in Matthew do you find that,Brice?
     
  3. donnA

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    good question
     
  4. I Am Blessed 24

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    These verses in Thessalonians seems to contradict the theory that Judas is the 'son of perdition'.

    Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Thessalonians 2:3,4

    That sounds like the anti-Christ to me, for he would truly be the 'son of perdition' - his father is Satan...
     
  5. bapmom

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    Both Judas Iscariot and the Anti-Christ are referred to as the "son of perdition"....right?

    Ive heard some put forth that perhaps Judas was actually possessed of the same spirit that will enable the Anti-Christ to do what he will do in the end times.

    Its all conjecture, of course.

    But Ive never heard of the son of perdition repenting. Id like to see what verse is being referred to. I looked up the phrase "son of perdition" and did not find it in Matthew at all. Of course, while the Bible is infallible, my SwordSearcher program (and its user) are not.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Context rules out "anti-christ".


    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Albert Barnes:

    But the son of perdition - See the notes at Mat_1:1. The term son was given by the Hebrews to those who possessed the character described by the word or name following. Thus, sons of Belial - those who possessed his character; children of wisdom those who were wise, Mat_11:19. Thus Judas is called a son of perdition because he had the character of a destroyer. He was a traitor and a murderer. And this shows that he who knew the heart regarded his character as that of a wicked man one whose appropriate name was that of a son of perdition.
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
     
  8. I Am Blessed 24

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    so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    Isn't this what the anti-Christ is going to do?
     
  9. bapmom

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    Thanks Grasshopper!

    I should say then that, as we all do, Judas had the chance for saving repentance up until the moment of his death.

    Whether he truly repented and gave himself over to Christ, we will find out in Heaven, I suppose.

    Ive heard some contrast Judas' reaction with Peter's. Judas went out and hanged himself, while Peter went out and wept bitterly. Both showed they knew themselves to be guilty, but the one was trying to get away from it and felt like he had no way out but suicide, while the other wept in real regret.

    Just some ideas Ive heard regarding it.
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    The context of John are the disciples. "Anti-Christ" was not a disciple. "Son of Perdition" is not an exclusive term to just anti-christ.


    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Who is the "them"? The son of perdition is one of the "them".
     
  11. Brice

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    Sorry for not clarifying.

    Matt. 27:3 "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself , and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders". (KJV)

    Matt. 27:4 "Saying I have sinned in that I betrayed the innocent blood".
     
  12. Brice

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    Grasshopper,

    I see you already posted the verse I was thinking about. Thanks. [​IMG]
     
  13. bapmom

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    well Brice,

    the word "repent" is not synonymous with "salvation." After all, in the OT God is said to have repented. I wouldn't think that "son of perdition" is referring to a permanent state when it comes to Judas. I mean, like I said before, he had the chance to come to salvation up until the moment he died.

    I agree with the previous poster that said that "son of perdition" is a description of who that person is acting like at the time.
     
  14. Brice

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    Bapmom,

    I agree with you for the most part. Although repentance is not salvation, it is a facet of salvation. We see much repenting in the Bible and assume in many areas that it's representative of salvation. We assume Peter was saved due to the fact that he wept. Unless I'm missing something, this is the extent of Peter’s repentance as displayed in the Bible.
     
  15. bapmom

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    I think Peter was saved before that point.....wasn't it earlier that Peter made the declaration that he believed Jesus was the Son of God, and that they could go to no other?

    but perhaps the point is too obscure to really matter?

    I guess what Im fumbling around trying to say is, that just because the Bible says Judas repented of his deed and tried to give the money back doesn't mean that he actually got saved....that's all.
     
  16. Brice

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    I can agree with that. [​IMG]
     
  17. bapmom

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  18. StraightAndNarrow

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    It depends on whether he had previously been saved. I've always wondered how Christ could include someone who was unsaved in the group of the deciples.
     
  19. Marcia

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    I do not think Judas was not saved. Even Jesus said that when he said that none given to him had perished except Judas, "the son of perdition."

    The word "repent" in the verse posted is also translated as "felt remorse." Feeling remorse does not mean one has been saved. The word "repent" is sometimes used for this; that does not necessarily mean a repentence unto salvation. We can't base salvation on the word "repent" which can also mean remorse. And just repenting does not mean one is saved anyway.

    Also, no one in the Bible who commits suicide is positively spoken of. I looked that up once based on something the "death doctor" Jack Kervorkian said.

    In Jn. 13, Satan enters Judas and in Jn. 17, Jesus calls Judas the "son of perdition." Almost every time Judas is mentioned in the gospels, it is said that he is the traitor, or the one who will betray Christ. There is never a single positive word said about him.

    I think the evidence is that Judas was not saved.
     
  20. Rachel

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    I agree with Marcia, the evidence seems clear.
    Also Judas called Jesus teacher, he never called Jesus Lord or master as the other apostles did, did he?
     

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