Soonness: A fact that needs to be dealt with

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Mar 30, 2010.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    Soonness

    One thing I have noticed about these verses that deal with "soonness" (for want of a better word) is that many people just sort of flit around the challenge posted by these verses. They dance around it like a Mexican Hat Dance, wanting to explain, or qualify, the problematic verses brought up, by pointing to other verses.

    I used to do the same thing. I distinctly remember giving preterists the cold shoulder 5-10 years ago on ABCProphecy. I really felt that they were on the slippery slope to destruction - a step away from denying their Lord altogether (if they hadn't already done so!)

    Of course, I used to feel the same way - at one time - about Amillennialists. My youth pastor in Kansas many years ago had done his job well; he had soured my disposition against even considering Amillennialism.

    But I no longer think that Preterism (speaking generically for now) has anything to do with slippery slopes, but rather learning curves. The difference between those two is that the latter trends blessedly upwards.

    So - what about those "soon" verses? Can these possibly mean 2000 years? No. Not if language has any reliability left in it at all. Though men often equivocate in their shameless misuse of language, yet certainly God would not. His "yes" means "Yes".

    So, for a reminder, here are just a few of those soonness verses. More comments below:

    ____________________________________
    Matthew 16:28
    Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    Matthew 23:36
    Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Luke 11:50-51
    That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

    From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

    Rev. 1:1
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Rev. 1:3
    Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Rev. 22:6-12
    And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

    Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

    Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    ---------------------​


    Like I wrote earlier, it was these verses - and I have just picked a few out of many - that just stuck in my mind and heart. They required both acknowledgment and to be incorporated into my belief-system. But it just wouldn't fit into my system. That is when it was time to look at other paradigms.

    I needed a system that dealt forthrightly with these straight questions:

    How can Christ come quickly ... and be delayed almost two millennia?

    How can Christ come into His kingdom within the lives of those very disciples He was speaking to ... and then delay it well beyond the death of all of them?

    How can all the vents of Matt. 24 be fulfilled before that current generation passed away?

    If this very same generation is the one on whom will fall judgment for all their sins from "the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias" why do so many - including Amills - treat this chapter as Gentiles judgment (as well as Jewish)?

    These were just a few questions I had. Preterism answered these well to my satisfaction.
     
  2. webdog

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    "Soon" and "quick" are relative terms. Compared to eternity, even since the creation, 2000 years is a warm breath on a cold night.
     
  3. asterisktom

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    And the dance begins.
     
  4. Gwyneth

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    Our pastor spoke about this last Sunday. He gave us this comparison to bring 2000 years into perspective :-
    imagine a man born in the same year as the Lord Jesus and living to 80 yrs old......then another born as this man died and living 80 years and this happening 25 times. Eighty times 25 years is all that 2000 years is.....or 25 lifetimes end to end...
    Not really such a long time viewed like that.
     
    #4 Gwyneth, Mar 30, 2010
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  5. asterisktom

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    Or we can take Jesus' words to His disciples at face value. We do all kinds of mental gymnastics when we don't want to accept the words as His disciples would certainly have taken them. Your pastor's slant really does not address the words of Christ.
     
  6. webdog

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    I'm sorry...I didn't realize you only wanted replies that agreed with you. Silly me...thinking this was posted in the debate forum. Carry on...
     
    #6 webdog, Mar 30, 2010
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  7. Grasshopper

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    Yep, I finally could not ignore the obvious anymore. Not only time "words", but time statements such as Matthew 16:27-28 and :

    Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
     
  8. webdog

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    What is the "obvious" from that? Matthew 16 is not referring to the second coming.
     
  9. asterisktom

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    Sarcasm noted. And - from you - expected.

    No, silly, I am not looking for simple agreement. Scriptural disagreement is most promising, because it is the basis for Scriptural discussion.

    I gave over a dozen verses. You gave a vague, fuzzy, Scriptureless response.

    What did you expect me to debate with that?
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    When does this occur?

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
     
  11. webdog

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    2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

    Like I said...it's relative.
     
  12. webdog

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    Future...your point?
     
  13. asterisktom

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    OK, I guess that is certainly Scripture - the very one I expected to come into this discussion. It is the "John 3:16" of futurist eschatology, I guess.

    By "Scripture", however, I meant the ones I mentioned, especially these:

    Matthew 16:28
    Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    Matthew 23:36
    Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Luke 11:50-51

    That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

    From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
     
    #13 asterisktom, Mar 30, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2010
  14. annsni

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    So Jesus came back....

    and forgot to conquer evil??

    What's the deal?
     
  15. Allan

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    Webdog is correct that 'soon' and 'quick' are relitive terms. Relitive to the contexual frame of time - intended. Note these 'soons' of scripture and yet it decades and even hundreds of years to fulfill.

    The land was the promised land they were 'yet' to go into. Now when was the promised land taken from their possession?
    ANSWER: [NOT] as 'soon' as the OP assumes.

    Another 'soon':
    So far the evildoers and workers of iniquity have not be cut down like grass. Not even in Davids time. (this was over a 1000 years ago)

    Another 'soon':
    Nope, this hasn't happened yet either... but man, I thought it said - soon.

    Here is another where 'soon' shows it relitiveness in decades:

    But these are just some.

    It is of note that most often, when speaking in relation to time, if it is either the next thing to happen or to happen in a little while, you will [often] see the qualifier 'as'.. as in - as soon, or as soon as.


    editted in - [..]
     
    #15 Allan, Mar 30, 2010
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  16. Allan

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    No, just bibical.

    Note the word - 'coming'. This is why the direct correlation is the transfiguration, and not his leaving.

    Context is your friend. Not the people hearing what he was saying but the people who will be witnesses of what he was saying.

    Again context.

    Again, context. What generation, them or the ones who will witness these things and not partially of these things.
     
  17. asterisktom

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    The deal is I am not getting any straight answers to the verses I presented.

    Only sarcasm.

    The fact that - not just here, but elsewhere - there have been no substantive responses to those particular issues raised by those particular verses - was an answer in itself.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    My point is you said this:

    What is Matthew 16:27 referring to?
     
  19. asterisktom

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    Yes, yes. Context. My point exactly. You are saying "context" but you are not adhering to your own rule.

    Taking just one of these:

    Matt.16:24 - 28
    24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

    25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

    26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

    27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

    28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

    Notice, first of all, the connectives, "for". These are all part of the same topic. Notice that at the same time He comes into His kingdom He also rewards each man according to his works. It is this same coming into the kingdom that Christ's contemporary hearers - most of them - will witness in their life times, in their generation.
     
    #19 asterisktom, Mar 30, 2010
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  20. Allan

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    Nice words, but nothing of substance.
     

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