Soonness: A fact that needs to be dealt with

Yes, I've asked you several times to explain the many prophesies that says Jesus will come to save his people and not destroy them, and you have completely ignored them.

I would call that playing footsie.

 

This is the first time you have adressed me. I usually ignore you because last time we had a debate you would never answer questions.

In answer to your question, both are true. He saves the remnant and pours his wrath out on those who refuse Him. It is a common theme. Old Covenant Israel was made of two groups the remnant(true Israel) and the rest. Salvation came to those who believed judgment to those who did not.

I'll ask you the same questions:

1. What did Jesus mean here:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2. Did this literally happen?

3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.

 

Thanks for your response Grasshopper...
I'll have to think about it for a while but to answer the following:

First, the "evil" servant is not evil because he says "my Lord delays His coming" but he is evil because he beats his fellow servants in light of that fact.

He had a reason to say what he did because in fact his Lord had delayed His coming, that is my point.

We disagree concerning the length of time of that "delay".

Having said that my view on Matthew 10:23 is that in light of that delay (going on 2000 years now in my view) Jesus will take up where He left off with the 144,000 of the twelve tribes Israel spoken of in the Revelation.

It is to them (Israeli Jewish believers) in the midst of the Tribulation therefore that this Scripture will apply.

I base this upon a comparison of Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 (among other Scripture).

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
...
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Acts 3

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.​

There was no visible and bodily return of "this same Jesus" to the Mount of Olives accompanied by deliverance from the Romans (actually "all nations") in AD70 by splitting the mount of Olives and creating a new valley as a way of escape.


At the present time it seems too great a challenge for me grasshopper to connect the AD70 invasion of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies with the second coming of "this same" Jesus.


The language of Acts 1:11 seems a solitary proof text against full preterism.
Zechariah 14:1-5 seems the Acts 1:11 complete and literal fulfilment.


So, before I would consider a change of position from moderate dispensationalism-Partial Preterism, my challenge to any full preterist is to harmonize the Acts 1 language of "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" with the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies.


As for:

Micah 1

3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.​

This sounds similar to Zechariah 14 where Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and the touch of His feet under Him will create the escape route of this new valley (probably the Valley of Jezreel - Hosea). ​

So yes it is a literal fulfilment with some imagery as well.​

Neither of us have a problem with imagery, metaphor, allegory, etc. Just how to interpret the meaning of what they represent as well as sorting out what is literal and what is imagery.​

Also in another of my posts I asked Brother Tom or any full preterist to define for me the transition from time into the eternal state, the final resurrected glorified body and the impact of that transition upon the material universe.​

Perhaps you or Tom ar any other full Preterist could do that for me.​

Full preterists seem weak on these matters.​

Use whatever sources, Scripture preferably, commentaries, church fathers...​

Thanks again Grasshopper.​

HankD​

 

Well, let me ask you, had the new doctrine of Christ spread over Israel by 70 A.D.? I believe the answer would be yes, and that it occured much sooner than that, probably within a very short time of Saul's persecution.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

It is very difficult to believe that the gospel had not gone over all of Israel many decades before 70 A.D.. So, according to your doctrine, Jesus should have come much earlier. Most scholars believe Paul was converted on the road to Damascus within one year of the Lord's crucifixion. Already the gospel had spread, Paul was going to Damascus to take prisoner Christians who had fled there for refuge.

So, Saul's (Paul's) persecution was no minor event. He was arresting these new Christians, and perhaps having some executed. People were fleeing for their lives. It is almost impossible to imagine that all of Israel did not know of this event and the new doctrine of Christ, and this nearly 40 years before 70 A.D..

 

As one who leans to a full-preterist position I find Acts 1 to be the best case for a future coming. All the other coming passages I can see easily being in the AD70 context. But that brings me to the problem of... for what purpose is His coming in Acts 1?

Here is how some FP's deal with it:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=701:what-about-acts-1-qhe-shall-come-in-like-mannerq&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61


http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=706:guest-article-william-bell-on-acts-1&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61

http://www.beyondtheendtimes.com/writing/articles/k_davies/how_was.html

So you believe this literally happened in the years 727-722 BC?

Gill:
This chapter treats of the judgments of God on Israel and Judah for their idolatry.

Mic 1:4 - And the mountains shall be molten under him,.... As Sinai was when he descended on it, and as all nations will be at the general conflagration; but here the words are to be taken, not literally, but figuratively, for the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and for the kings, and princes, and great men in them, that lifted up their heads as high, and thought themselves as secure, as mountains;

As dispies always ask preterists, "do we have any accounts where this is said to have literally happened"?

I agree, thats why I look for prior or similar use when dealing with language like this.

When you die you go immediately into the presence of God into the Heavenly realm with your eternal body.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

What happens to you when you die? Are you without a body? Are you a spirit waiting on your old body to be resurrected?

I love Don Preston's site along with his tremondous books. I think most of your answers can be found there with much better explanation than I could ever give:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...y&id=39:resurrection&Itemid=61&layout=default


If you prefer more exegetical work then Sam Frost does great work:

http://thereignofchrist.com/category/writ/commentary/1-corinthians/

You could probably help me understand it.

A little Sproul critque for you:
http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/otto-sproul.shtml

As always, a true pleasure. Hopefully those reading can learn from us both and make up their own minds after much study.

 

Thanks grasshopper, you've given me a lot of material to consider.

I'll answer your inquiries in a summary way.

Every view has its difficulties and yes the "delayed" coming of the Lord does seem to go against the beliefs of the apostles and some of the epistle prophecies which have the expectation of His return within their own lifetimes.

To me however this does not violate the inerrancy of the Scriptures because we have been down this path of principle before with the preaching of Jonah who declared what the Lord had given him to say.

Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.​

Yet Ninevah was not destroyed in 40 days. God cannot lie but apparently He can "repent":​

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

The point is that apaprently God at His disgression can and does "repent" (Makes changes to His plan as a result of human responses - or so it would seem).

Theologically, I can't fathom the mechanics of God and His ability to "repent" but accept what the Scriptures says about it and try not to sprain my brain contemplating it.

"and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not".

So, my sense of the "delay" has to do with God's foreknowledge of the nation of Israel and their rejection as a nation of the Gospel in the end times:

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

God was not taken by surprise at Israel's rejection. The Lord, in order to fulfill all righteousness and to "stop every mouth", preached the Gospel through His Apostles to the Jew first (who rejected it as a nation) and then the Greek (helenists) which continues to this day until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled and He returns to the Mount of Olives and then restores the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God to Israel as a nation.​

Acts 13:46 began the "official" ingathering of the Gentiles (IMO). God in His foreknowledge having made room for it, the Lord tarrying in His return as the Gentiles (and believing individual jews) are gathered into the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God, the Church(es).​

Yes, just before the final trumpet Jews will be turned against Jews, against their own brethren as in the days of Hosea and the Civil wars between Israel and Judah.​

I am of the opinion that many OT prophecies have both a near or partial fulfilment and a far and/or completion component to them.

As to the resurrected body of the believers of Jesus Christ (who ate and drank along with the disciples in their mortal bodies), our departed spirits will apparently receive that same kind of body at some later point in time. So It would appear to me from Scripture that our body which we desired to be clothed with will come later. Though I don't completely dismiss the idea that the Scripture indicates it awaits us in the heavenly tabernacle as our spirit leaves the mortal body and makes it's exodus to the Father.​

You have given me a huge homework assignment. ​

Thanks again brother.​

HankD​

 

Grasshopper had said that many or even most here are better educated. He has acknowledged that he hasn't been to seminary or even a Bible school. He has admitted that what he has learned has been gleaned from others more knowlegeable.
Therefore your paragraph is absurd. What childish and inane comments? You rarely read posts with full comprehension.

 

Did I say ANYTHING about his education? No, I referenced his knowledge, not his education.
Secondly, our conversation require no reason to bring it up except to try and elevate himself, nothing more.

Lastly, coming from you I'll take the above post as a compliment Thank you Rippon.

 

Again Allan, how can you consider the above childish and inane?

 

Hi Tom,

RE: Colossians 1:23

KJV Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

"to every creature" is en te ktisei (Koine) which in some translations is:​

ASV Colossians 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.​

NAS Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.​

DRA (Douay-Rheims from the Vulgate) Colossians 1:23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister.​

and others (Darby, Young's).​

HankD​

 

Thanks for doing us both a favor Fact is I responded to your OP with a legitimate answer, which you replied with a troll statement. If the shoe fits...

Blessed are the poor in Spirit.

 

Hi Tom,
The minor point I was making is the use by the KJV of the preposition "to every creature" rather that the alternative prepositional phrase "in all the creation".

The Gospel being preached "In all the creation" does not necessarily mean that everyone in the creation actually heard the gospel.

If the Gospel is preached in all the States of America, it does not necessarily mean that everyone actually heard in the State of Washington (for instance) as opposed to the Gospel being preached to all in the United States.

But I agree completely concerning "ktisei" it's a rather unusual word and a bit of a stretch translating it as the "Roman" world.

Thanks
HankD

 

　
You can't be serious can you? You're equating the "many" that Jesus spoke of concerning salvation with the "many" false Christs that were to appear. Talk about ignoring context. What do you want to bet "many" here doesn't mean thousands?

Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill,
　
This is nothing less than desparation and is clear to anyone reading.
　

I stepped in alot of that in my farm days.

So Acts and Josehus recorded everything there was to know concerning this? Acts was written nearly a decade before the Fall of Jerusalem.

You have inferred from your argumentation they had not, other places you say some had, other places you pull out the dual fulfillment card which indicates all had been. Here are some of your statemnets:

However notice what the disciples ask Jesus and His own answer about their fulfillment and the coming of the end (Not 70 ad.) - The entire chapter 24 of Matthew speaks of what is to come..


Now what are some of the things that shall happen so that we know that the end is 'near' (soon) and even at the door?
1. Many will come claiming to the Christ?
2. There will be wars and rumors of wars - IOW - their will be world wide hostility.
3. (yet here Jesus states the end isn't yet - or even close)
4. Nation will be against nation, Kindoms against kindoms.
...4a. also - famines
...4b. also - earthquakes in many places
...4c. also - diseases
Yet here Jesus states 'this is only the beginning of sorrows. (vs 8)
5. All nations will hate, and seek to torture and kill you
... 5a. Then many will fall away [from the christian faith] and betray each other and hate each other.
6. Many false prophets will rise up and decieve many
7. Sin will be rampant and thus will cause many's love (of Christ) to grow cold.
8. The gospel of the Kingdom will be preached to ALL nations -
........and THEN the end will come.
9. (vs 15)Because of the above..when you see the abomination of desolation - flee
...9a. from Judaea
...9b. If one is on the house top - do not come down
...9c. Don't go back for anything -run!

What is of MOST note here is that this abomination of desolation comes AFTER the gospel is preached in all nations - then the end will come. The end seems to be marked (as the beginning) with the abomination of desolation. Was the gospel preached to all nations by 70 ad? If not, the true abomination of desolation had not yet occured.

10. THEN shall the great tribulation begin (and as noted it will be something that had nor will never been before or since)
11. The 'days' will be shortened by God, else ALL (all mankind) would die.
12. If during 'that' time, anyone states here or there is Christ - don't believe them.
13. False christ and prophets will arise showing show great signs and miracles decieving, if possible, even the very elect.
... 13a. don't believe they have seen me is some distant or secret place.
14. Why? Because when He does "come" it will be like the lightning which illuminates the whole sky.
15. Immediately after the tribulation of those days (the above things that will transpire),
... 15a. The sun will be darkened,
... 15b. the moon will not shine,
... 15c. the stars will fall (meteor showers),
... 15d. and the power of the heavens will be shaken.
16. And THEN shall 'appear' the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven
... 16a. ALL mankind will mourn
... 16b. ALL mankind will see Him
... 16c. as He will 'come' on the clouds with power and great glory.
17. Then He will send forth His angels with the sound of the trumpet to gather His elect from earth and heaven

18. When these things are seen, know the time is at hand (the end)
19. This generation shall not pass away till all is fulfilled.

Now if all of the above has already happened in 70 ad. then it was that generation, but if not, then the generation being spoken of is that generation which will see all of the above fulfilled. Some has been but not all.


You have yet to tell anyone which of these occured in the 1st century. Everyone that is brought up you argue against. So finally tell us....which verses were fulfilled???? What are the "some" you are referring to? It looks by your statement you are arguing agains any being fulfilled then at the end say "some" have. So tell us please.

Dual prophecies require an initial fulfillment. You have yet to indicate any of these have had an initial fulfillment.

 

More of your statements:

Any objective person reading your comments would say that is not true.

Here is what you said:

Acts does not speak of many false christs nor does Josephus speak about many false christ's. Both actaully speak to false prophets and Josephus speaks of magicians as well.The terms 'seducers and imposters' typically referces to false prophets or false messengers of God. These are not the same as false christs and in fact Jesus even distinquishes between the two by stating both groups will abound.

This is an example of your vaugue and somewhat deceiving tactics. Then once confronted with the historical record, you now claim you never denied there were false christs.

As has been shown numerous times the word for world is the same one found in Romans where Paul says it has been fulfilled:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (oikoumenē).

So the apostles believed He was coming back in their lifetime because they were seeing prophecy being fulfilled. Yea, isn't that the point I've been making? What prophecies concerning His return were they seeing fulfilled?

So when all these things are fulfilled Jesus will come. And the generation that sees all these things were to understand the end is near. When I asked you if the end was near you replied:

Is the end near - YES!

:BangHead: Am I the only one who is seeing this?

You have denied verse 6 has occured yet also claim the end is near. So the end is near whether verse 6 has been fulfilled or not in your view which makes your statement above meaningless..

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

This one still makes me :laugh: