Soteriological Chronology

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    "Repent, and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). Repentance, then baptism; and before repentance is the grace of regeneration, which is "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4).

    When were those who Peter were speaking to saved? When "they that gladly received his word" (v 41). When did they receive his word? When "they were pricked in their heart" (v 37).

    Thus, after "they that gladly received his word" (saved), they were then baptized (in water), and following this, they received the gift of Holy Spirit. The "gift of the Holy Spirit" in this passage is not Himself, for He was in them when they believed (received his word-- as Jhn 1:12). But "the gift" from the Holy Spirit was the gift of which "they were all amazed and marveled" (v 7). They repented and were baptized "because of the remission of sins."

    Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect).

    "For the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism; for this is only obtained by the blood of Christ."
    Gill--http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts2.htm

    NC
     
  2. Getting it Right

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    Obviously, Acts 2:38ff is addressed to Peter's Jewish Brethren, as is carefully pointed out: Israel, Judea. He is still clinging to a formula for salvation by Grace through Faith, not yet having come to Spiritual comprehension of the latter. Repentance (restoration) was essential for the Jews through water baptism. In preparation for the appearance of Jesus, their Messiah, they had to have their sins remitted. That is not salvation by Grace through Faith, THE Gift.

    :jesus:
     
    #2 Getting it Right, Jan 10, 2015
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  3. Zenas

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    How does Mr. Gill propose to get some of Christ's blood? I don't have any of it lying around and don't know anyone who does.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    salvation is stated in the Bible as God's response to the free will choice of man. And the free will choice of man is a result of God's sovereign choice for free will - and God's all powerful ability to "draw all unto Him" John 12:32 thus enabling all mankind to choose.

    Thus the ability to choose comes before one is saved. It is ability given to the lost by God.


    Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."
    The God of the Bible "came to seek an save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


    The very sequence Calvinism objects to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

    Romans 10
    “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
    "with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.


    That is how the "unreconciled" become saved as they respond to God's call where he "begs them to be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5

    As Christ stands on the outside of the christless-lost "I STAND and KNOCK - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

    2 Peter 3 where we find that God is "not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" How does He take action to solve that problem according to Peter? is it by "mind ZAPping"??? No it is by the very "Arminian" solution of "delaying" allowing time for "Gospel appeal" to go forward -- a very Arminian process.
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jan 10, 2015
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  5. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    My point to make is merely the truth that the provision of salvation can only be attributed to Christ, for there is much confusion differentiating between producing salvation and receiving it, which can result in depending on self (even if nominally is error) instead of Christ.

    This misunderstanding does not inhibit ones salvation from Christ even if this is not understood, because it's just a misunderstanding, which detracts not from the actuality of one's faith, but it does keep one's faith weak, for trusting in anything or anyone other than the Lord Jesus results in being "weak in the faith," because of not fully trusting in Christ but rather also self.

    Everything other than producing salvation (Jesus) involves receiving it, and the growth and retaining of it depends on the same source which provides it (Jesus). Thus faith, repentance, works, etc. are all effects of "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). It is God “working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ” (Heb 13:21).

    If one is not living a repentant life, it reveals the absence of faith, which is the result of the absence of God’s work (rebirth) within!
     
  6. BobRyan

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    In full agreement with Romans 10 --- I assume.



    Romans 10
    “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
     
  7. Getting it Right

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    Try inserting His "sacrifice" where it states "blood." Perhaps that will help.

    Otherwise, I'm really surprised by your comment. :confused:

    Please turn to John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, John 5:24, and then Romans 10:8-13.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    peter answer was to a specific time and people, as unto the Jews gathered for pentacost there, and they would understand peter telling them that you must be water baptized in the name of Jesus, as he is the one who already saved you by believing unto him for salvation, not to get in the water and that act saves you!
     
  9. Getting it Right

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    Not quite. They would have understood that they must be cleansed of sin in order to be presentable to their promised Messiah. Once they had done that, acknowledging Jesus as Messiah, they would have been prepared for His return. His return would be to set in motion the Kingdom of God on earth, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on the Throne of David, ruling with the 12 Tribes of Israel.

    That return did not happen, although Peter and the 12 and even Paul thought that it was "soon coming." It will happen, but not until after the Rapture of the Body of Christ and the Trib.

    :jesus:
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    That is all true, but the passage in Acts cannot be claimed to be teaching baptismal regeneration, as some like the Jesus only use as a proof text!
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The chronology in Romans 10 is pretty clear - so also 1Peter 3.

     
  12. Yeshua1

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    So are you saying that salvation is a free gift, is Eternal, and we do not do anything to keep it then?
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I am saying Romans 10 is correct.

    And so also is the irrefutable teaching of Christ in Matt 18:23-35 -- as we both know.

    23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Now back to the chronology of Romans 10


    Romans 10
    “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Because we so love to test all doctrine - sola scriptura
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    Are we saved right when we confess and believe in jesus, or do we have to do certain acts, such as keeping the sabbath?
     
  15. savedbymercy

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    A lost person cannot believe as stated in Rom 10:9-10 because they are in the flesh and can't believe/obey God Rom 8:7-8 ! To believe is an act of obedience Rom 10:16 !
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Bud, if you'd believed other than <<in the flesh>> you never will.

    And how do you get <<To believe is an act of obedience>> from <<Rom 10:16>>?

     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    We are not <<saved right when we confess and believe in Jesus>>.

    We are saved from before the foundation of the earth God having elected us from everlasting in his Son.
    But we come to the realisation and knowledge of our salvation through God's gift to us of our faith in Jesus.

    And as little or no as <<we have to do certain acts to be saved, such as keeping the sabbath>>, as little or no do we have to do the act of believing to be saved. Because where is no salvation, there is no faith, and where is no faith there is no salvation. As simple as that because <<to be saved>> is ALL of GOD'S, WILL, AND, of GOD'S, DOING.

     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jan 13, 2015
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  18. Getting it Right

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    To believe is to respond to the ministry of the Holy Spirit. One comes under conviction, and responds. Romans 8:7-8 ~ Those (anyone) who continue in / remain in the flesh, are not acceptable as such. They must respond to the Holy Spirit, as in 10:8-13.

    Romans 9-11 is Paul's lament for the Hebrew folk, expressed to whom? Read Romans 10:1-3.

    Although Paul's plea is for the Hebrew folk, in 10:8-13 he invites everyone. That is the cornerstone of everyone's confession / profession / acknowledgment of and belief in Jesus as Savior. It incorporates faith, hope and trust.

    In Romans 10:1 Paul proclaims, "Brethren, my heart's cry for Israel....." and in 10:14 Paul pointedly returns to his heart's cry for the Jews:

    "14 How then shall THEY (the Jews) call on Him in whom they have not believed?"

    This one verse cannot be plucked out of context to mean that those who do not believe today are unable to respond to God's call by professing / confessing / believing.

    THEY (the Jews), Paul is pointing out, have been and are rejecting Him as the promised Messiah. They have turned away from Him, in Paul's day.
    This one verse is directly applicable to them. They are at the center of his "heart's cry." In rejecting Him, their hearts are hardened. How will Paul get his point across to the Jews? How will he and his brethren break through? This is the Apostle Paul's heartbreak. He needs Holy Spirit inspired ministers, messengers, followers, to proclaim the Truth. THAT will result in God's call and the lost person's response.


    :praying::jesus::praying:
     
    #18 Getting it Right, Jan 13, 2015
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  19. BobRyan

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    Romans 10
    “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Because we so love to test all doctrine - sola scriptura

    your objection to Romans 10 ... noted.

    And your objection to John 20:27-31??

    27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
    30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

    Romans 8 does not help your argument because God is the one who enables the lost to choose - to receive Christ so that they can participate in the Rom 10 and John 20 sequence -that starts with the choice to believe.
     
  20. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    God continues to cause us to remain in His "pleasure" (Phil 2:13)--by His Spirit (Gal 5:17).
     

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