Soteriology And Eschatology, A Little Bit Of Irony

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Thousand Hills, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. Thousand Hills

    Thousand Hills
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    In another thread (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97948&page=8) there was an interesting exchange between Icon and PTony. While both of these posters are respectful of one another, it is clear from many other posts that they have different views about the salvation process. Here is the exchange

    And the reply:

    I'm bringing this up because its something I've wanted to start a thread on in the past, but couldn't quite articulate my thoughts (still probably won't in this OP). But since I saw this exchange I thought I'd point out a little bit of irony, at least the way I see it. BTW, my purpose is not to bash PT, he does very well representing his points of view and is respectful of those who hold differing views (as shown above).

    Here goes, I find it quite amusing/ironic that the non-cal crowd, most of who are pre-trib rapture ready dispys, like to lay the accusation on the cal crowd that they are anti-evangelism, only the chosen few will make it, its not fair, what a cruel God you have, etc., etc.

    Yet on the other hand the same crowd are looking for the blood moons and can't wait to get out of Dodge so the Lord can lay the smack down on those who didn't make the right choice.

    The way I see it the Lord will return in the fullness of time, at just the right moment just as he came the first time. He will come only when all the elect have been "harvested" as Icon puts it. If one is so concerned with lost souls, is it not selfish to want the Lord to come back right now? While we should be ready at any moment, the reality is that if the Lord tarries (despite your view of how salvation happens) it will mean more being saved, right?

    I think a lot of this is just part of our warped patriotism. God has blessed this country yes, but the flame is flickering. We look around and don't like how our society is (though much of it is the church's fault to some degree). So we think, oh my, look how bad it is, persecution is coming down the road, Christ must be coming back soon. All those folks that walked the aisle aren't here anymore, oh my, there's a great falling away. The reality is God will do as he pleases with the good ol USA, the torch may pass somewhere else, fine and dandy if it does. Yet we are somehow special in his plan? How dare he make us suffer any for our faith!

    So before I get roasted let me ask?

    (1) Where do you think we are, are we still in the early church age? (Are you Cal or Arm?) Or is the end right around the corner? (Are you Cal or Arm?)

    (2) Those of you with experience with believers in foreign countries where the gospel is spreading like a wild fire, places where believers truly are being persecuted, what are their views on eschatology?
     
  2. OldRegular

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    I believe that when the last of the Elect is brought into the Household of Faith, the Church, then the Lord Jesus Christ will return. As for when the Lord will return I will tell the following story I heard.

    A lady {Actually the way I heard it was a little old lady but I am afraid to say that here!} ask the preacher when he thought the Lord would return. {I expect she was Rapture Ready.} He told her: "I think not today!" This upset her and she apparently berated the preacher a little until he quoted Scripture: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. {Matthew 24:44}
     
  3. percho

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    Salvation?

    I am going to state where I think we are and I pray all will tell what you think about what I think. And I like you hope I can express my thoughts clearly.

    All men have sinned and all are in the following status. Gal3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin. Sin, singular if it matters. All, not just the Gentiles, not just Israel, all are under sin.

    Before there can be any salvation that sin has to be dwelt with. How is it dwelt with? By the Passover Lamb. Behold the Lamb of God hat takes away the sin (again, singular) of the world. Again, not just Israel, not just the Gentiles but the whole world. Without the death of the Passover Lamb no man would or could, ever be saved. Therefore the Passover belongs to all men, not just Israel. The Passover begins the salvation of man. What did it do? It was followed beginning the very next day beginning in the evening followed by the morning the feasts of the LORD, which are all holy convocations. The Passover was not a holy convocation.

    The feast of unleavened bread followed on the Passover Lamb being slain. The Passover was the fourteenth day and the feast began the fifteenth day. The blood of the Lamb began the process of or sins being removed, washed away, yet this feast also had a holy convocation seven days later. Why? Here is why I think it carried two holy convocation days. The blood alone could not wash away our sins. See, 1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. For the blood to wash away our sins required life from the dead of the Passover Lamb, the washing of regeneration, the resurrection of Jesus. That is why Paul states in 1 Cor 5:7,8
    that we Israel and Gentiles should keep the feast of unleavened bread, because that is how we were unleavened. (Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.) Now is that feast of God just for Israel or is it for all men that the Passover Lamb died for? BTW you see the resurrection of Christ between those two holy convocation days in the waving of the sheaf on the morrow following the weekly Sabbath following the Passover. That day also is not a holy convocation day.

    Salvation has now been set up for all men. How is God going to apply it to men. All at once. By letting them choose to believe something or walk down an aisle, or be baptized in water?

    What is the next feast day of the LORD.

    The day of firstfruit when your weeks be out. The feast of harvest, the feast of firstfruit, Pentecost? The feast that has to do with being predestined. Predestined for what? Who is God giving the firstfruit of the Spirit and why? Rom 8:23 NKJV Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    Poured out on the day of firstfruits, a holy convocation, setting apart some from Israel and some from the Gentiles and still going on today. For purpose.

    How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Heb 2:3 What did Jesus come speaking about, that concerns great salvation? Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, Heb 2:5
    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    They were speaking of the world to come which they heard from them who heard from Jesus preaching the kingdom of God.

    They are predestined to reign with Christ in the world to come, the kingdom of God. That is who God is currently applying salvation to. All men die in Adam and all men will be raised in Christ but each in his own order.
    Christ has already been raised. Those who are Christ's at his coming, the next feast BTW, to rule with him, what they were predestined for.

    That is where I believe we to be.

    There are still four more feast days of the LORD, to come. What do they have to do with SALVATION? Who are they for?
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Who is looking for the blood moons?
     
  5. convicted1

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    The John Hageeites......


    Probably the Tim LaHayeites, too....
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    I see so we do not know who those people are we just make broad statements so we have a foundation on which to criticize those we disagree with.

    Got it.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Steaver does that all the time with his incessant bashing of Calvinism/TULIP....
     
  8. PreachTony

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    Thank you for that introduction, TH. As I read through your post, I didn't take it as "bashing" me at all, mainly because I don't believe some of the things you listed. I would like to respond, though...

    For the record, I am a non-Cal but I'm about as far from a pre-trib-dispy position as it gets in the non-Cal camp. Any non-Cal wasting their time searching out blood moons needs to get away from the John Hagees and Jack Van Impe's of the world and get into the Word of God. As a non-pre-tribber, I don't believe God's going to remove one group and beat down another group, so I can't say much to your last sentence.

    I don't "want" the Lord to come back right now, but if He did I would most definitely rejoice in it. I believe we are in a period I've always thought of as the "longsuffering" of God (see 2 Peter 3). He's tarrying His return, as the Holy Spirit works to draw more men unto salvation. He's still sending out preachers. I've never considered this from a patriotic standpoint.

    I believe we are much closer to the end, though God may draw out time for another 10,000 years. If He does, who are we to say anything about it? By the by, I've never really tried to lump myself into the Cal or Arm camps. I'm more Free-Will than anything.

    N/A
     
  9. kyredneck

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    Icon is Postmil, which sounds good and positive and optimistic and encouraging, in stark contrast to the end times theology you describe that the majority hold to. A poisoned world view:

    "In a lecture Darby gave in Geneva in 1840, he publicly stated:

    “What we are about to consider will tend to show that, instead of permitting ourselves to hope for a continued progress of good, we must expect a progress of evil; and that the hope of the earth being filled with the knowledge of the Lord before the exercise of His judgment, and the consummation of his judgment on the earth, is delusive. We are to expect evil, until it becomes so flagrant that it will be necessary for the Lord to judge it…”

    Unfortunately, the adoption of a worldview through the eyes of Darby, instead of the eyes of Jesus, causes us to rejoice over all the wrong stuff.

    When we embrace fundamentalist end-times theology, we’re forced to celebrate bloodshed and violence, instead of celebrating the events which remind us that we serve the “Prince of Peace”. Every bomb that gets dropped in the middle east, every earthquake which kills thousands in Pakistan, every tsunami that wipes out countless lives in Asia, becomes a beautiful sign of the end....."

    No, I believe it's quite late, the thousand years are finished, Satan has been loosed, and the camp of the saints is being encompassed even now. But no worries, fire will come down out of heaven and devour them all. I hold to sovereign grace.

    On our scale, by no means.
     
    #9 kyredneck, Feb 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2015
  10. padredurand

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    Is this where Bone Day fits in? :confused:
     
  11. PreachTony

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    Careful, now, padre, you'll be accused of being an anti-Christ parrot. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  12. Thousand Hills

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    Thanks for sharing this. I have family members that say all the time how bad its getting, etc. There is nothing new under the sun. Our society just reminds me how evil mankind is and how gracious God is to look upon any of us to redeem.

    A favorite quote (paraphrased) "The Early Church didn't say look what the world is coming too, they said look what has come into the world." The comfort of the church in America is being threatened, which is probably not a bad thing. Are we wanting to escape, or are we ready for the trying of our faith?
     
  13. percho

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    For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. Why?
    For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Why?

    Will the return of Jesus and the manifestation of the sons of God at that time be good or bad for everyone else that are not manifested at that time?

    In hope.

    Hope of what?

    because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Is that inclusive of people or just plants, animals and rocks?

    “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
    “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    Is the return of Jesus good for all of mankind or just those who God has given the firstfruit of the Spirit?
     
  14. InTheLight

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    Non-Cal. Yes to both questions. I know it's a cop-out answer but my attitude is that the church has not expanded to the point I believe the Lord would want, and so is tarrying, but we should live as if the end is right around the corner.

    I'm interested in hearing from these people. I wonder how one would find them?
     
  15. kyredneck

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    I agree totally. In the words of one of the deacons at the Lexington Church:

    "Historically, the Church languishes under prosperity but thrives during adversity".
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Amen....so Lord, bring on the adversity:godisgood:
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Some months ago I read about a Jew in Florida complaining bitterly about the pre-trib-dispensationalists wanting to usher in the Grrrreat Tribulation! I have tried to find reference to it on the internet but no luck.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    During the worst of Roman persecution one Church father reportedly said, "the blood of the martyrs became the seed of the church".

    This was demonstrated after Romania was freed from domination of the Soviet Union and Communism. There apparently was a thriving underground church.
     
  19. kyredneck

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  20. OldRegular

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    Lays it on the line does he not! That discussion must have occurred during one of my sabbaticals cause I missed it completely!

    Shucks No! I had a post right above it. My age is getting to me. I need a short vacation!

    KY! I thought you were older than dirt and here you gat a better memory than me!
     
    #20 OldRegular, Feb 8, 2015
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