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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Apr 3, 2016.

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  1. Browner

    Browner Member

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    I haven't formed my opinions from anyone, anything,
    anywhere, etc. except from the Holy Scriptures
    and from the Holy Spirit's revelations ...
    Jesus said God's indwelling Spirit would be
    teaching believers "all things" (John & 1 John).

    This includes the Triune Godhead; many on Christian
    forums argue that Scripture does not teach this!
    And they think they're Christians!

    Re: OSAS, there are opposing passages!
    IMO, anyone who does not immediately see
    these opposing passages is spiritually blind.
     
    #41 Browner, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Which ones do you see as opposing? Let's break them down.
     
    #42 revmwc, Apr 14, 2016
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The difference is your understanding and interpretation, not a lack of spiritual discernment on the part of those who believe in the doctrine of eternal security...or for that matter of those who don't. I've cautioned you before about going beyond doctrine to speak of what you not only cannot discern but have no authority to do so (the spiritual state of other people).

    Please consider this a public warning to discuss doctrine with the maturity and discipline fitting Christian discourse. If you believe a passage denies OSAS, then by all means discuss the passage. But tone down the ad hominem.
     
    #43 JonC, Apr 14, 2016
  4. Browner

    Browner Member

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    #44 Browner, Apr 14, 2016
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    First thing that must be understood with t book of Hebrews is the reason for its writing. Also understand as the King James delegation came together to bring forth an English translation Bible their task was to determine which books to accept and which ones not to accept. First the author was to be identified and since Hebrews has no author identified it was set aside for a while. Calvin states this “They suspected that it favored Novatus in denying pardon to the fallen; but that this was a groundless opinion will be shown by various passages.” So Calvin sees the thinking that OSAS was challenged says it was groundless. Yet the author remains unknown even today, many have opinions but not one is proven, so why was it determined that this book had a place in the Holy Scripture that was put together by the council? They found scriptural merit in the book thus we have this beautiful book.

    Now who was it addressed to? Those Hebrews (Jews) who had made professions of Christ. The thing the author was trying to prove was that Christ office was sure. He was an High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. The Aaronic priesthood had ended.

    So what ended with that priesthood, Sacrifices? Such as the atonement sacrifice. So when we see Chapter 10 verse 26 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”

    Now many of these “Hebrews” were falling back to practicing the sacrificial offerings. So that if they sinned willfully they were offering an atonement sacrifice in the temple. They were drawn back to their old practices. Notice verse 3 of chapter 1 Christ “purged our sins” He finished the need for a sacrifice. So that when they willfully sinned there was no need or “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” They didn’t need to go to the Temple and offer a sacrifice for those sins. They had already been purged. What di they need to do instead, Confess their sins to Christ.

    Notice verse 19

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    Believers can enter into the Holiest by the blood of Christ, He has become our sacrifice and the need to offer a sacrifice for sin has been abolished. That is the atonement sacrifice required by Jewish law, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” it was npo longer required. This is not saying one can lose their salvation it isn’t saying Christ Sacrifice for them was of no effect, it is saying you as Hebrews (Jews) no longer are required as Christian (believers in Christ) to offer an atonement sacrifice, that is no longer valid.

    The author was warning the Jewish ( Hebrew) believers about going back and forth or even reverting back to the Jewish sacrificial system. If they were truly saved there was no need for sacrifices to be offered.
     
    #45 revmwc, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
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  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I too formed my opinions from the Holy Scriptures as led by the Holy Spirit. And I came to the exact opposite conclusion.

    Tell me, can the Holy Spirit lead in two, opposite, directions at the same time?
     
    #46 TCassidy, Apr 14, 2016
  7. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Nope!
    But, He can (and does) reveal some deeper spiritual Truths
    to some believers and NOT to other believers,
    who are NOT ready (or for other reasons).

    Just for example: you are grievously lacking
    in understanding re: cessationism and etc.
    IMO, all denominations believing in this
    are the main reason why most North American
    churches are beyond deceived, asleep, dead.

    Spiritual power from the Lord depends on
    NOT believing in such things as cessationism!
     
    #47 Browner, Apr 15, 2016
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I see. So He has revealed deeper spiritual Truths to me but not to you?
    I believe what the bible says about the cessation of the miraculous sign gifts, that they will cease.

    And one of the primary reasons so many churches in North America are deceived is that vile mockers of all that is holy fool gullible people into thinking they can speak in other languages (that is mere gibberish) heal the sick (who die anyway) and do other really stupid things only those illiterates ignorant in bible knowledge could be fooled into believing.
    Spiritual power from the Lord depends on believing what God has said. He said "whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." I believe that. You, apparently, don't.
     
    #48 TCassidy, Apr 15, 2016
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think this post points out a major disagreement here. Some of us only have God's Word as an authority where as you believe to have a divine special revelation. So where I can point to passages of Scripture that deny your position, you can simply reject those passages because God revealed to you deeper spiritual truths. I, confined to Scripture and the unveiling of that revelation by the Spirit, somehow can't compete with those deeper spiritual truths that God grants to some. I don't know why that sounds so familiar....wait...no,....I do know why. It is because we have heard that type of "theology" time and time again.
     
    #49 JonC, Apr 15, 2016
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  10. Browner

    Browner Member

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    I have been told that practically ALL of the old denominations
    have changed their opinion on this verse ...
    they now admit that it is speaking of when the Lord Jesus
    comes to earth again at the Second Coming ...
    "When that which is perfect has come ...".

    And again, you present only a portion of the relevant verses.
     
    #50 Browner, Apr 16, 2016
  11. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Reading God's word is useless in itself.
    The Holy Spirit MUST reveal its' meaning.
    Non-believers have NO idea of the spiritual aspects of Scripture.
    Believers who have the indwelling Spirit have a good chance
    of being led into "all truth" (John, 1 John).
    But, their chances greatly diminish, if they are CLOSED
    to receiving spiritual Truth because of whatever reason(s).
     
    #51 Browner, Apr 16, 2016
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    When that which is perfect is come, then that or those which are temporal (temporary) will cease. Paul says tongues,prophecies and others will cease, because they are temporary gifts. When would they cease when that which is perfect would come. Now it doesn't say He who is perfect therefore it isn't referring to Christ. Now if Paul meant the Kingdom he would not have needed to say anything about it, because Christ would ruling and He would control spiritual teaching. So what else is there that has been completed? Scripture. The final book written and the temporary gifts ceased how can we prove this? Revelation completed prophecy, it completed what God wanted us to know and prophecy ceased when the book of Revelation was completed. Therefore the that was perfect or complete came and all the temporary gifts ceased therefore the lamguages (tongues) ceased when prophecy ceased.
     
    #52 revmwc, Apr 16, 2016
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have been told wrong.

    Some do add to the text (either to indicate "that which is perfect" to be the Second Coming or to be the canon of Scripture...both reflect poor hermeneutics). But the passage itself speaks of the temporary nature of those gifts, pointing not to a specific time when they will cease but to the fact that there is a time that they will cease.

    While I am not a cessationalist (I do not believe Scripture to indicate that these gifts necessarily ended with the Apostolic church era or with the formation of the canon of Scripture), I am literate enough to see that Paul is not speaking of a specific moment in history when all of those gifts will end but of the superiority of love (you are changing the subject of 1 Corinthians 13 in order to read your supposition into the text).
     
    #53 JonC, Apr 16, 2016
  14. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Please argue with all of the many denoms which have
    come to their senses and have changed their position.
    The meaning of those verses is ... when Jesus finally comes,
    there will be no need for those things!
    But, until that time, there IS a need for them, which is obvious
    because God's chosen method of evangelizing has ALWAYS
    been to confirm the Truth of Jesus' gospel with signs, wonders,
    and miracles ... not to mention the healing of people's MM
    (many maladies)!
    Butski, man has the free will to do whatever he pleases!

    It's high time for believers to get with God's program
    ... because time has almost run out.
     
    #54 Browner, Apr 16, 2016
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem with this interpretation is that Paul does not mention a time when they will cease but that they will (you are right that he is referring to the temporary nature of those gifts in order to emphasize the superiority of love). Ton-gues did not validate additional special revelation, but served as a sign to the lost what was being said (e.g., 1 Corinthians was not accepted as Scripture because Paul spoke it in a tongue which was interpreted by another who wrote it in Greek). Additionally, the book of Revelation prohibits additions to John's words...not the Bible. The text itself of 1 Corinthians does not provide support that tongues have ceased or that they continue (although it has been interpreted both ways).
     
    #55 JonC, Apr 16, 2016
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sure. Please list the scholars who translate the text to state "that which is perfect" to be the Second Coming so that we can compare it to those who translate the text to indicate that Paul was speaking of the superiority of love by emphasizing the temporary nature of sign gifts.
     
    #56 JonC, Apr 16, 2016
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  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Is prophecy needed? No, we have a complete cannon, the final prophecy is given in the Revelation of Jesus of which John transcribed. If prophecy ceased then so too did the other temporary gifts. When did it end with the prophecy of Revelation.
     
    #57 revmwc, Apr 16, 2016
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So what new prophecy have we had adding to the bible?
     
    #58 revmwc, Apr 16, 2016
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are missing the fact that for some the bible is trumped by a continuing narrative (God is giving him deeper truths to clarify some passages and nullify others). It's fun to discuss, only know that those subjected to God's Word cannot help but talk past those who are "enlightened" beyond such archaic literature.
     
    #59 JonC, Apr 16, 2016
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    1 Corinthians 13:9 ἐκ μέρους γὰρ γινώσκομεν καὶ ἐκ μέρους προφητεύομεν·
    10 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸτε τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται.

    Literal translation: "For we have partial knowledge, and partial prophecy, but when the complete (understood "thing") comes, the partial (understood "thing") will pass away."

    As you can see there is no noun identifying "thing" in this sentence. It is understood from the context.

    The context is speaking of prophecies, tongues, and knowledge, according to verse 8.

    What is the point of prophecy? To reveal future events (too many to list).

    What is the point of tongues? To reveal the wonderful works of God (Acts 2:11).

    What is the point of knowledge? To reveal those things that were hitherto unknown (too many to list).

    So, what is the context speaking of? Revelation, of course.

    So let's plug our understood subject, Revelation, into our verse.

    "When the complete (understood "revelation") comes, the partial (understood "revelation") will pass away."

    So, when God's complete revelation to man, the bible, is complete, the partial forms of revelation, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, being no longer necessary, will pass away.

    Now the absolute proof the above is correct.

    Look at verse 13. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."

    Paul says that even when he was penning the words to 1 Corinthians the miraculous revelatory sign gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given. Paul proves that by saying "But now faith hope and love remain -- these three."

    Paul did not say, "But now tongues, prophecy, knowledge, faith, hope, and love remain -- these six. Nope. Only three remained at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, faith, hope, and love. The rest were no longer being given and as those who already had the gifts grew older and passed away the gifts passed away with them. And it is no coincidence that, just as the last of those gifted first century saints were dying, John was also penning the "amen" to the last book of the bible, the Revelation. And when John died the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge died with him. Just as the bible says.

    Browner, take some advice from a old man who cares for your soul. Get out of that heretical, apostate, church you are in and find a good, bible believing church where you can be correctly instructed in the things of God. I will be happy to make some recommendations if you are not sure where you can find or if you could identify a good bible believing church.
     
    #60 TCassidy, Apr 16, 2016
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