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Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, Jul 3, 2004.

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  1. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    GODzThunder,
    Yes. I believe Jesus went to hell [hades] the grave, where the dead do "sleep" until we get the "call" from Jesus at His Return (Job 14:14-15).

    "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed....at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD shall be raised..." (1 Cor. 15: 51-52).
     
    #101 wopik, Aug 20, 2004
  2. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    "O death, where is your sting? O grave [hell], where is your victory?"

    (1 Cor. 15: 55, kjv margin)

    Why is death a sting? Why is the grave so victorious? Could it be that's where the dead sleep (v 51), till their change come ?

    But for those "in Christ" death and the grave are no longer victorious. Those IN CHRIST shall not all sleep - but "we shall all be changed".

    [ August 21, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
    #102 wopik, Aug 21, 2004
  3. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    wopik,

    What about Lazarus and the rich man?

    What about Moses and Elijah on the Mount?

    What about "Today you will be with Me in Paradise"?

    What about the plethora of verses "gave up the ghost"?

    What about Paul's statement "absent from the body" which ties in with "giving up the ghost"?
     
    #103 Gershom, Aug 21, 2004
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    where have you been ? We went through all this months ago. [​IMG]
     
    #104 wopik, Aug 21, 2004
  5. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    I'll go back and take a look...
     
    #105 Gershom, Aug 21, 2004
  6. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder New Member

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    Wopik I am sorry but I just cannot believe that Christ, even our GOD ALMIGHTY, wenth through a period of unconsciousness in death. Three days and nights of suspended animation does not compute!
     
    #106 GODzThunder, Aug 21, 2004
  7. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    GODzThunder,

    It seems logical to me, but then I think death IS unconsciousness; you don't.

    Paul talks about the whole person being corruptible (1Cor. 15); how can a corrupting, rotting person be conscious ? (I like reading 1Cor 15:35-57 in the New Revised Standard Version).

    Paul goes to great lengths talking about man being corruptible and mortal.

    "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: But He, whom God raised again, saw no corruption" (Acts 13: 36-37, kjv).

    "...let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both DEAD and BURIED, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" (Acts 2:29).

    Gen 2:7 / 1Cor 15:45, NRSV - man became a living being [soul].

    Christ, His being [soul] was not left in hell [hades, the grave].
     
    #107 wopik, Aug 21, 2004
  8. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Gershom

    No one who posts here agrees with what I say, but they are kind enough to let me post.

    *****************
    The rich man "lift up his eyes" when he was resurrected, and saw Abraham and Lazarus - immortal - in the kingdom of God. That was the "great gulf" that lay between the RM and Lazarus.

    It was merely a vision (Matt 17:9).

    "For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.” ---Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS / 2Timothy 4:6-8.

    Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

    There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately.

    In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

    Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing -- His second coming.

    In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.

    To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION.
     
    #108 wopik, Aug 21, 2004
  9. Cix

    Cix New Member

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    How do you know that the previous day he was lost? Is that written in scripture or are you assuming. We cannot know for sure if the previous day he was lost. Perhaps the thief was re-iterating his belief in Christ at that time. </font>[/QUOTE]Wopik, I see you cannot refute the fact that you are wrong in your statement that "the previous day he was lost".
     
    #109 Cix, Aug 22, 2004
  10. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    "Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise.

    Jesus went to the grave for 3days and 3nights. As Peter says, Jesus was not left in the grave long enough to see corruption (Acts 2:31).

    David, on the other hand, is still dead AND buried (Acts 2:29).

    David, contrasted with Christ, died and experienced corruption (Acts 13:36).
     
    #110 wopik, Aug 22, 2004
  11. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Cix

    perhaps.

    The "good" thief seems to have known that Jesus didn't deserve to be hanging there with them. This thief seems to have feared God (Luke 23:40),

    The other thief said to Jesus, "if you be Christ..."

    Luke 23: 39-43
     
    #111 wopik, Aug 22, 2004
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    #112 wopik, Aug 23, 2004
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    #113 wopik, Aug 23, 2004
  14. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain.....then they also which are ASLEEP [dead] in Christ are perished" (1 Cor. 15: 17-18).
     
    #114 wopik, Sep 3, 2004
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So what? it needs to be brought up again. This is a dynamic debate forum for Baptists. There always new folks coming aboard.

    wopik, if you are not a baptist by church affiliation (because you certainly are not so by doctrine) at least have the integrity to move your discussion to one of the non-baptist forums.

    HankD
     
    #115 HankD, Sep 4, 2004
  16. Pastork

    Pastork New Member

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    Rather than come into the middle of the lengthy discussion of soul sleep and post such a lengthy post of my own, I just thought I would let you all know that I have posted a collection of common passages used by both the advocates of soul sleep and the traditional view of the intermediate state at my church's forum.

    I think I may have given a number of exegetical responses against the soul sleep advocates' reading of Scripture that may not be included in the BB discussion.

    http://immanuelforum.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=143

    I will gladly respond to any comments here or at the Immanuel Forum.

    Pastork
     
    #116 Pastork, Sep 4, 2004
  17. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly New Member

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    WHERE IS SHEOL -- 6 feet down or as far down as heaven is high??

    SDAs and WWCOG (wopik) say that Sheol is the grave and nothing else.

    How do you explain these texts????

    Several weeks ago in this thread i Posted the texts below and received no comment.

    Numbers 16:30 says thet the rebellious there will descend ALIVE into Sheol. If Sheol is merely the grave and they cease to exist as soon as they reach the grave, then Moses' statement is absolutely meaningless. Read the context.

    Deu 32:22 says God's fire burns into teh LOWEST part of Sheol. if Sheol is merely six feet of grave, then this makes no sense.

    Ps 86:13 says "Thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol." Again DEPTHS refers to something much deeper than the grave.

    In Isaiah 7:11; 14:14; Jonah 2:2 and Amos 9:2. Sheol is as deep as heaven is high. Again Sheol is NOT the gravae.

    In Jonah 2:6 (see verse 6) Sheol is compared to the base of the mountains at the bottom of the sea. Jonah, like the rich man, is crying out to God From Sheol.

    I have plenty more texts than these to show that Sheol is NOT the grave. the body rests in te grave and the spirit went to a conscious existence in Sheol in the O.T.
     
    #117 Russ Kelly, Sep 4, 2004
  18. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Pastork

    Secondly, no scriptural verses actually uses the term "immortal soul". That's because souls die (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).

    The word soul is used for bugs and birds.

    In regards to man, the "soul" is merely the person, in his entirerty.

    There were 276 persons [souls] on Paul's ship (Acts 27:37).

    Souls die (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).


    A soul is just a flesh and blood mortal creature, whether animal or man.

    Soul has nothing to do with immortality -- check it out ------- a mind is a horrible thing to waste.

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html
     
    #118 wopik, Sep 5, 2004
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    HankD

    I'm on my way over !
     
    #119 wopik, Sep 5, 2004
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