Soul Sleep

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Inquiring Mind, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    0
    One must avoid reading a particular theology into a given word. Throughout scripture, the word “sleep” is used as a metaphor (or euphemism) for physical death (cf. Jn 12:11-14). However, the extent to which this metaphor describes the experience of death remains a matter of personal interpretation. Some thnetophsychists [including Adventists] exploit the metaphor as evidence that death is an unconscious state, excluding any thought or experience; but sleep is endowed a certain dimension of thought and experience in dreaming. Accordingly, the interpreter risks a selective interpretation of the metaphor—arbitrarily relating some elements of the sleep experience to death, but not others.

    This caution is especially pertinent considering the fact that many surrounding cultures (Egyptian, Greek, Roman; etc.) used the same metaphor for death as a phenomenological comparison. Sleep seemed an apt image of death, given the resemblance of a motionless sleeper to a corpse (cf. Ovid, Amores 2.9.41; Cicero, De Senectute 22.80; Homer, Odyssey 13.79-81; Hesiod, Works and Days 116). Of note, the popular use of the metaphor within these cultures did not exclude prevailing afterlife cosmologies. In fact, a connection was often made between the afterlife and dreaming in these cultures (cf. the "free soul" in proto-hellenic thought that left the body both in sleep and death).

    Accordingly, an exegete cannot assume that the use of the metaphor in Biblical literature excludes the possible existence of an intermediate state (as is sometimes suggested). The evidence is not substantive.
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    1Th 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
     
  3. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you SDA as well Brother Bob?

    Sleep is figurative and symbolic.

    Do you really believe that no one since the ressurection has gone to heaven, that our souls are actually asleep, still attached to our bodies?
     
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    absolutely not. The soul and body part at death, the soul goes to be with Jesus and the body goes to the grave. There are those souls under the altar of God and they were at rest apparently (asleep) and something disturbed them. I believe the souls of the righteous are with Jesus and I don't find where they are roaming around Heaven do you?

    I mean, Paul said there was a rest that remaineth for them that love and serve the Lord.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

    You have to admit - if you accept that the "PERSON" is the one that "Falls asleep"[/b] and the [b]"body parts" are that which decays, rots and "returns to dust" as the NT says - you never run into the =problem" of praying TO the dead.

    Furthermore it is clear as to WHY we would not be allowed to communicate with the dead - in that case. It leaves only ONE group of spirits to "answer us".


    Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).



    Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".



    Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”




    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    As it turns out - there are even more texts for InquiringMind to ignore on this topic --

    Lazarus

    If it is the “Person that is Dead, that is the Friend of Jesus and that is In the Tomb is the one that is Asleep” instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death -- then we would expect to see..

    John 11
    1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
    2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose brother Lazarus was sick.
    3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''

    11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''[/b]
    12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
    13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
    14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,
    15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
    16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
    17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.
    18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off;
    19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother.
    20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house.
    21 Martha then said to Jesus, "" Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
    22 ""Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.''
    23 Jesus said to her, ""Your brother will rise again.''
    24 Martha said to Him, "" I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.''
    25 Jesus said to her, "" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
    26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?''


    But if it is only the Corpse of the person that is dead, and that is in the tomb and that is the friend of Jesus while the Person of Lazarus becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast -- then we would expect to see,,

    John 11
    1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
    2 It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped His feet with her hair,whose brother Lazarus was sick.
    3 So the sisters sent word to Him, saying, "" Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.''

    11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend is alive in Christ in haven but the Body of Lazarus, has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
    12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if IT has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
    13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
    14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus’ body is dead,
    15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
    16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
    17 So when Jesus came, He found that IT had already been in the tomb four days.
    18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off;
    19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother’s Body.
    20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house.
    21 Martha then said to Jesus, "" Lord, if You had been here, my brother’s Body would not have died, and my brother would not be in heaven Alive in Christ now.
    22 ""Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.''
    23 Jesus said to her, ""Your brother’s Body will rise again.''
    24 Martha said to Him, "" I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.''
    25 Jesus said to her, "" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will have his body live even if his Body dies while he is alive in Christ in heaven,
    26 and everyone Lives forever but those who live and believe in Me will have Bodies that never stay dead. Do you believe this?''




    1Thess 4:
    Again – here is 1Thess 4 as it would be written if the PERSON is the one sleeping in death instead of the Person becoming “Alive in Christ” at death.

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.>>

    Again – lets “rewrite” this so that the person does not sleep – only their decaying flesh is “sleeping” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are Alive in Christ in heave while their corpses are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those whose are alive in Christ and yet have corpses that have fallen asleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who have bodies that are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who are in heaven alive in Christ and yet have decayed corpses that have fallen asleep on earth. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead corpses in Christ will rise first.>>
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    How would 1 Cor 15 be written IF it was the Person that sleeps in death instead of the Person being “Alive in Christ” at death?

    1Cor 15:16
    For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

    19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
    20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

    35 But someone will say, ""How are [b]the dead raised[/b]? And WITH what kind of body do they come?''
    [/quote]

    Now let’s Rewrite this to see how it would be written to show that only the bodies are “asleep” while the Person becomes “Alive in Christ” at death by contrast.


    For if the dead bodies of the Alive in Christ are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those who are alive in Christ in heaven at death will have their decaying corpses (asleep in Christ) perish instead of merely sleeping.

    19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
    20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those Alive in Christ who have decaying corpses that are asleep.

    35 But someone will say, ""How are [b]the dead bodies raised? [/b] And WITH what kind of body do the dead bodies come?''



    WOW! What a rewrite!

    The “really fascinating” part of this is that 1Cor 15 DOES have a segment that IS just focused on the BODY of the saints. So Finally we have a text that does NOT need to be rewritten so
    that it applies Only to the body – the decaying corpse of the Person. Here it is…




    =================================
    1Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.


    Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".




     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    If you are going to exchange views with Iquiring Mind you will need to learn to supress some of the words you find in scripture. I doubt that IM is going to take too kindly to your admitting what is in 1Thess 4:14.
     
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dead people are sleeping including the dead woman Mary.
    Prayer to the dead people who are sleeping is like speaking to the stones and to the wood. They don't understand what the living people are saying. Any prayers to the dead people and to the stones have been invented to prevent the people from praying directly to the God the Father which was mentioned in Mt 6:6 and Jn 16:23


    Dead people aredescribed as sleeping

    Daniel 12:
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
    Joh 11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep
    Ac 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption
    1Co 11:30 - Show Context For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep
    1Th 4:14 - Show Context For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him 1Th 5:10 - Show Context Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    Don't try to wake the sleeping people if you are not Lord Jesus who will wake the sleeping people and bring them with Him when He comes again.

     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    why BR? The scripture says what it says.
    Do you believe as IM says that the soul is in the grave with the body, or where do you believe the soul is and what state is it in? Please just give me a summary for I apologize but I have a hard time understanding you at times. I know the body is dead, I don't care who says what for "thou fool, how can that be quickened (made alive) except it first die. Also, there are many bodies that have returned to dust that are blowing in the wind. I don't know of a lot of scripture telling us what the soul is actually doing after death so we have to use what we got. There are souls under the altar of God "at rest", (what does rest mean?) I also know that the scripture does call death of the body "sleep" at times and others "dead".
    I just wonder how can God "bring with Him" those that sleep in Jesus. To "bring with Him" seems to me they would be coming from the same place He is, which is Heaven.

    BR; Just give me in words and not scriptures where the soul is and what state you believe it is in and then if you want back it up with scriptures. Again, I apologize for not being able to understand you at times for you give different "takes" on the scriptures and I don't know which one you are believing. Thanks,
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Oct 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2006
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The body is certainly dead "not asleep" it is returned to dust -- poof - nothing. The earthly tent of 2Cor 5 -- simply decays and is no more.

    (Although some here might be trying to imagine "intelligent dust that is asleep").

    In Eccl the "spirit returns to God who gave it" as LeBuick reminds us (in the case of Christ and of Stephen) "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit".

    The soul - is simply the result of the Union of body and spirit. (Gen 2 - God breathed into man the "breath of life" and man BECAME a living soul). Since only God can do that - then only God can really ensure that a "soul is destroyed" by never joining the spirit with a physical body again.

    During that state of separation - 1Thess 4 states that the "person" is "Asleep" as does John 11.

    However since "the Living know that they will die but the dead know not anything" - we conclude that the sleeping saints are not "marking time" or even "waiting". They count no time at all between death and resurrection. It is an instant - the twinkling of an eye for the dead. So from the perspective of the one dying - the moment you die you are instantly at the resurrection. Either the resurrection of the righteous called "FIRST resurrection " in Rev 20:4-5 or it is the resurrection of the unjust - which is the one "after the 1000 years" -- the one where all raised there ARE subject to the "Second death" -- the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

    The most compelling argument on this subject is given by Christ Himself in Matt 22 when debating with the Sadducees. If you read the text carefully you will see that he forces them to admit to the resurrection by using logic, reason and scripture to put them "into an iron clad logic puzzle" where the ONLY exit - the ONLY solution to the puzzle is "the resurrection".

    What is amazing is that the stubborn ol' Sadducees "get the point" of Matt 22 according to the account - but most Christians do not!! The interesting thing here is that they were not as blindly bound to their own man-made traditions as most Christians are that read that story! I find that amazing -- beyond belief even -

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Oct 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2006
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well Bob;
    I agree with you that the body is dead. In fact in order to go to Heaven it has to be dead according to the scriptures. "thou fool, how can that be quickened except it first die".

    I also agree with you on the Spirit that it goes back to God who gave it.

    I also agree that it will seem like a moment of time from one's death until one's resurrection but I believe there is more to the soul than just a reunion of the body and spirit.
    There were souls and just souls under the altar of God. Also, in the 1000 year reign the scripture says "I saw the souls (of them) that were beheaded. So, again I believe that is what God will be bringing with Him. For the time until the resurrection is "poof" with God for He is without time.

    We agree more than we disagree. I thank you for your answer, in a way I can understand what you were saying, but if the Spirit goes back to God and its "poof" then the soul also could go to God. Again, I apologize for being a little "slow" when it comes to interpting what you say sometimes.

    When all men are actually pinned down they don't really know exactly about the soul and there are some things that are supposed to be that way according to the way God gave them to us. The main thing whether you believe like I do or like you do the final result is to live with God forever without any unknowns or nature things such as dying, crying, hurting, sickness, sinful ways etc.
     
  13. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is not the soul and the spirit one in the same?
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is not doubt that in many cases the Scripture when speaking of the soul says spirit and visa versa but they are not the same even though to separte them is to me not likely.

    1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Rev 20:2-4 we see "I saw the souls ... and they CAME to life". Meaning that before they "Came to Life" they were not -- alive. And this "coming to life" Rev 20 calls it "the FIRST resurrection".

    So if we can agree that "when the soul COMES TO LIFE" we have the first resurrection - then I think we are very close to saying the same thing.

    As for the souls trapped under the altar - or confined under the altar - I am thinking that just as the altar is symbolism - so also the idea that the souls are stuck under the altar or praying for vengence. Also in Heb 11 we see that the "blood of abel cries out" from the ground.

    In any case - when the topic is explicitly "resurrection" then you have "The souls ... CAME TO LIFE" and the term given that event "the FIRST RESURRECTION".

    The key to understanding what happens when a person dies - is to understand what happens when a person is resurrected.

    That is where Christ was taking the Sadducees in Matt 22.

    The "nephesh" or breath - or spirit was "breathed into man and he BECAME a living being -- a living soul" the term for soul and person in Gen 2 is one and the same. Man IS a soul.

    Living things are souls. For example "Every soul in the sea died" in one plague in Revelation. The person -- the soul is the person. The person is preserved by God in the form of the spirit of the person that goes back to God.

    But more interestingly - have you considered the details in the "proof" that Christ gave in Matt 22??

    IN that case He is debating Sadducees who do NOT believe in the resurrection NOR in spirits - nor in life after death in any form. Have you considered the iron clad argument used to convince them of the resurrection?

    Recall - that these guys were die-hard stubborn and had their heels dug in on this point. Yet Christ blew them out of the water.

    How did He do it?

    Hint it was not an argument of the form "just trust me because you are such trusting people".

    It is not an argument of the form "whatever I say must be true even if you are not inclined to believe it".

    These guys were not 'frustrated christians stuck in Sadducee suits" they were "the real deal" when it comes to opposing the resurrection AND spirits and angels and life after death!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    For those interested in a detailed review of Matt 22 --

    Matt 22

    23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,[/b]

    Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture
    where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the
    question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.

    Like all good debaters - they start off assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to
    show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.



    24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
    25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
    26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
    27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
    28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''


    Here the Sadducees present the “problem” for Christ’s view – showing that at the very first opportunity for the woman to be in any kind of relationship with her husbands (the resurrection of the dead) the problem is not solvable.

    Because the Sadducees do not believe in Angel, or spirit or resurrection – they see no other “opportunity” for the problem of the woman and her 7 husbands to surface using Christ’s view of what happens after death. Apart from the supposed future resurrection that Christ teaches, they so no other time for the woman to relate in some way to her husbands after death.

    Devastatingly to many Christians today that hold to the immortal soul idea - They see no problem IN death for Christ’s view – just a problem at the resurrection.


    29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.



    In this case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God. They are hardly in a frame of mind to be instructed by the humble carpenter’s son. His claim that they do not know the Power of God or the scriptures – is not convincing at all to them. They see this as simply an insult. Nothing “compelling” in the dialogue so far.


    30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

    Step one - He solves their riddle.

    He uses the “Given” that they have handed him – which is “Given that His teaching is correct” – and He shows that if one is using His set of truths – there is a solution to the puzzle – “No marriage”.

    His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.

    In arguing that IN the resurrection “They are like the Angels” Christ is tossing another barb their way since they ALSO do not believe in Angels. (Insult added to injury as they say).

    Step two Christ chooses to debate head-on making the SAME form of argument against their view that there is no resurrection..


    He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine.

    So like all good debaters -He begins by telling them what he is going to prove (That the future resurrection is a fact of scripture) and then starts off with common ground.

    31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
    32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?

    Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

    This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.



    32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''

    Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead. In fact they even go beyond that – they argue ALSO that there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).

    So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.

    In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their own argument in this chapter was that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.

    The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.

     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Conclusion – Iron Clad Case Made!![/b]

    At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”! say many Christians today. “How“ incomplete”! they argue.

    You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.

    Notice the language of Rev 20 where we see this confirmed “The souls came to life” and this is called “the FIRST resurrection”. Only in resurrection is this “coming to life” and having a restored relationship with God achieved.

    Rev 20
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls[/b] of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and [b]they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[/quote]


    Notice this great end-time and focus of the entire book – the entire NT church when “Souls come to life” John calls it – the “First Resurrection”
    Notice that “before “coming to life” they are “counted as the dead” such thatthe REST of the dead did not Come to Life until the 1000 years were finished”
    Notice that the “souls came to life” (and we had the FIRST resurrection) and the “rest of the dead comes to life” after the 1000 years (hence the 2nd resurrection)

    Now back to Matt 22

    However to the Sadducees and Pharisees the point was abundantly clear, b]Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape
    since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. God was claiming to be the God of “Abraham” the “person” not just “Abraham the dead body” and God is NOT the God of “Dead Persons”. Once Abraham (the “person” not merely Abraham “the body) died – God was NOT the God of Abraham (the person) any longer if there is NO resurrection. Only by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection could these two statements be true at the SAME time.

    They already accepted that God called Abraham the father of many nations while as yet he had no children. They accepted that God counted future events as though they were already a fact. So now Christ argues the SAME future view for the resurrection – showing that BECAUSE of the resurrection (and ONLY because of that) God could still claim to be the God of Abraham EVEN when speaking to Moses – long after Abraham died. Christ COMBINES the two key points that they already agree to – and makes the devastating debate point FOR the resurrection. (Which is the nature of an effective debate point). Christ’s argument was devastating to them. Though they would love “not to see the point” they could not pretend not to get it.

    And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which the future resurrection that He taught was the ONLY solution.

    But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Matt 22
    33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
    34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together.

    Now this is really interesting because it shows that the proof was obvious to the entire crowd. Even the Pharisees could see that Christ had "silenced" the Sadducees by this devastating proof. Christ's argument is brilliant - but it only works if you believe both parts of His premise AND if you accept that the ONLY way for BOTH statements to be true is for there to be a Future Resurrection.


    Sadly, many Christians today argue that they have “another solution” for BOTH of those statements to be true – and it does NOT need the resurrection to “make them true”. Even the tradition-hardened stubborn Sadducees were not that married to tradition over reason. For they were “put to silence” –

    These were not frustrated Christians stuck in Sadducee suites>
    There were not opponents easily swayed by a “trust me in whatever I say because your are so trusting”
    Neither is this plain and obvious argument “Mysterious so that we should not try to understand it”

    The “puzzle” Christ place them in – was so “iron clad” that there was one and ONLY one way out – the Resurrection.

    31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:…
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Paul provides comfort to saints who have lost loved ones to death.

    The entire discussion is about “people” not body parts! The body parts “return to the dust” by “contrast” to the “PERSON” that is rise again. The body parts “decay and return to the dust” whereas the “person” is the one who has “fallen asleep” according to Paul.

    “Those who are asleep” are the saints “the Dead in Christ” – by contrast “their body parts” simply decay and return to dust.



    #1. Paul argues that the PERSON that has died is to be referred to as “The THOSE who ARE asleep”. “Those who HAVE fallen asleep”. He does not say “Those who have a body and IT fell asleep” – vs 13

    #2. Paul argues that our HOPE concerning “those who have fallen asleep” is in the bodily resurrection of Christ! God will raise THEM along with Christ. And as he already said to this church in 1Cor 15 -- each in their own order. Christ at HIS resurrection and then the rest of the saints at the coming of the Lord.

    #3. Paul then argues that those PEOPLE that we knew that have fallen asleep will in fact get taken before us -- for “The dead in Christ will rise FIRST”. So this assures us that they are not being left – in fact they are being taken BEFORE US to be WITH the Lord. But Paul says this happens at the coming of the Lord!! – vs 15

    #4. All of the focus for our hope concerning the dead is on the “Coming of the Lord” and the fact of the bodily resurrection. No other “time” is offered in 1Thess 4 as the focus for our “hope” regarding those persons that have died! “The DEAD in Christ” is the term Paul uses to refer to “Those” whom we knew that have died. THOSE that we would be inclined to grieve over.

    #5. They rise up and we are caught up WITH them and in THIS way shall the saints - all the saints – ever be “WITH” the Lord. Finally we see the mechanism for being “WITH” the Lord.. And Paul points to this focus on the resurrection taking place at the “Coming of the Lord” (the one John Calls the FIRST resurrection future to his day in Rev 20:4-5) as the event upon which our hope is placed. Christ does the same thing in John 14 If I go away I will come again and receive you unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you (the person) may be ALSO”
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Bible says souls (of them) in other words a part of a whole.

    My Bible also says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I don't think they just "came alive" then but began reigning and living with Christ then.

    I also believe that Christ was the first resurrection and that many of the bodies of the saints arose after His resurrection and went into that Holy City.

    I guess we really part beliefs here then Bob.

    I tell you how I get along with that scripture of 1000 year reign. I teach and preach that "you know you have life now, so make it as sure as you can and repent now for if I am right and the 1000 years has been fulfilled and you teach others they can wait until the 1000 years then they will miss Heave. If you are right and the 1000 years is yet to come but you listen to me and repent now then it makes no difference whether the 1000 years is over or yet to come.

    I think you will agree there are many different beliefs about end times and my belief that the 1000 years is over is not just my belief alone for there are many others who believe the same.

    I believe Bob it will be a very short work the Lord will do when He comes and that is to receive the believers and pass judgement on the lost, the devil and his angels.

    At least we agree on a large part of it.

    The "whole" person, body soul and spirit.
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Oct 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2006

Share This Page

Loading...