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Soul Sleep

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Inquiring Mind, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    If the Body and Soul are inseparable, then if you kill the body, you also kill the soul.
     
  2. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

    13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    Why would He bring something He does not have?

    Sleep is a metaphorical and/or figurative.
     
  3. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    Romans 6:23

    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Does this mean eternal life except for while my soul is taking a "dirt-nap"?
     
  4. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    1 Peter 3:18-20

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

    Another proof against inseparability
     
  5. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    An even MORE pertinent question is:

    Since belief in "soul-sleep" is not a pre-requisite for eternal life, why should I care? If "soul-sleep" is true and I'm wrong about it...what???...Am I gonna be so suprised that I forget to be resurrected? What's the big deal? (other than you getting to think that your gnostic beliefs are superior to Christian belief)

    I relegate "soul-sleep" and the "rapture" to the "Museum of Doctrinal Oddities and Irrelavancy." Two of the made up doctrines which have no actual effect upon my ultimate destiny.
     
  6. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    Let's look at what Jesus said about death:

    John 6

    Amen, amen, I say to you,
    whoever believes has eternal life.
    I am the bread of life.
    Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
    this is the bread that comes down from heaven
    so that one may eat it and not die.
    I am the living bread that came down from heaven;
    whoever eats this bread will live forever;
    and the bread that I will give
    is my Flesh for the life of the world.”

    or John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    Did you ever notice when reading the bible that whenever Jesus talks about death he refers to his enemies?

    "the wages of sin is death."
     
  7. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    In the Old Testament, Isaiah 14:9-17 indicates clearly that the dead are conscious, and the New Testament tells the same story. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how, after Jesus died on the cross, he "preached to the spirits in prison." If the dead were aware of nothing, his preaching would have been futile.

    So to be absent from the body is not to be unconscious; rather, it enables one to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent or a tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt 10:28). Our souls live after the death of our bodies, since John "saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . ." (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8) and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

    Those who led an unrighteous life are just as conscious of their punishment as the just are of their joy. If one is in hell, "he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest" (Rev. 14:11). This is an "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41-46).

    Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies and "existing in torments . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . 'I am in anguish in this blazing fire'" (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This Valley of Hinnom was located southeast of Jerusalem and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were burned continuously day and night. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, "where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out" (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this "everlasting fire" (Matt. 18:8) will come "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:12). Now, if hell were "a place of rest in hope" as the Watchtower teaches, Jesus would not have chosen such contradictory illustrations to convey this.

    SDAs feast your eyes on the above scripture which is only a part of the proof of life after death. The scripture you reference is regarding the body, not the spirit or soul which lives on after death. Like most religions other than the one established by God you do not read the whole bible and take it in context. You can't pick and choose scripture or you will certainly lose.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 22

    23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,[/b]

    Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture
    where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the
    question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.

    Like all good debaters - they start off assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to
    show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.


    Matt 22


    24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
    25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
    26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
    27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
    28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''[/b]


    Here the Sadducees present the “problem” for Christ’s view – showing that at the very first opportunity for the woman to be in any kind of relationship with her husbands (the resurrection of the dead) the problem is not solvable.

    Because the Sadducees do not believe in Angel, or spirit or resurrection – they see no other “opportunity” for the problem of the woman and her 7 husbands to surface using Christ’s view of what happens after death. Apart from the supposed future resurrection that Christ teaches, they so no other time for the woman to relate in some way to her husbands after death.

    Devastatingly to many Christians today that hold to the immortal soul idea - They see no problem IN death for Christ’s view – just a problem at the resurrection.

    Matt 22
    29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
    [/b]



    In this case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God. They are hardly in a frame of mind to be instructed by the humble carpenter’s son. His claim that they do not know the Power of God or the scriptures – is not convincing at all to them. They see this as simply an insult. Nothing “compelling” in the dialogue so far.

    Matt 22

    30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
    [/b]
    Step one - He solves their riddle.


    He uses the “Given” that they have handed him – which is “Given that His teaching is correct” – and He shows that if one is using His set of truths – there is a solution to the puzzle – “No marriage”.

    His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.

    In arguing that IN the resurrection “They are like the Angels” Christ is tossing another barb their way since they ALSO do not believe in Angels. (Insult added to injury as they say).
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Step two Christ chooses to debate head-on making the SAME form of argument against their view that there is no resurrection..

    He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine.

    So like all good debaters -He begins by telling them what he is going to prove (That the future resurrection is a fact of scripture) and then starts off with common ground.

    Matt 22


    31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
    32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?
    [/b]
    Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

    This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.


    Matt 22

    32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''
    [/b]
    Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead. In fact they even go beyond that – they argue ALSO that there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).


    So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.

    In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their own argument in this chapter was that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.

    The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Conclusion – Iron Clad Case Made!![/b]

    At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”! say many Christians today. “How“ incomplete”! they argue.

    You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.

    Notice the language of Rev 20 where we see this confirmed “The souls came to life” and this is called “the FIRST resurrection”. Only in resurrection is this “coming to life” and having a restored relationship with God achieved.

    Rev 20
    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    5
    The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part
    in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


    Notice this great end-time and focus of the entire book – the entire NT church when “Souls come to life” John calls it – the “First Resurrection”
    Notice that “before “coming to life” they are “counted as the dead” such thatthe REST of the dead did not Come to Life until the 1000 years were finished”
    Notice that the “souls came to life” (and we had the FIRST resurrection) and the “rest of the dead comes to life” after the 1000 years (hence the 2nd resurrection)

    Now back to Matt 22

    However to the Sadducees and Pharisees the point was abundantly clear, b]Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape
    since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. God was claiming to be the God of “Abraham” the “person” not just “Abraham the dead body” and God is NOT the God of “Dead Persons”. Once Abraham (the “person” not merely Abraham “the body) died – God was NOT the God of Abraham (the person) any longer if there is NO resurrection. Only by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection could these two statements be true at the SAME time.

    They already accepted that God called Abraham the father of many nations while as yet he had no children. They accepted that God counted future events as though they were already a fact. So now Christ argues the SAME future view for the resurrection – showing that BECAUSE of the resurrection (and ONLY because of that) God could still claim to be the God of Abraham EVEN when speaking to Moses – long after Abraham died. Christ COMBINES the two key points that they already agree to – and makes the devastating debate point FOR the resurrection. (Which is the nature of an effective debate point). Christ’s argument was devastating to them. Though they would love “not to see the point” they could not pretend not to get it.

    And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which the future resurrection that He taught was the ONLY solution.

    But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.
     
    #71 BobRyan, Oct 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2006
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. I have never said they are inseperable - I say that the soul is in a dormant state WHEN the spirit "returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12 -- which IS the death process for ALL humans. (Not just good people).

    #2. God DESTROYS BOTH body and SOUL in hell fire JUST as much "destroyed" as "Dust to dust" when the sinner's body is destroyed at death in this life.

    This totally wipes out the idea of "wicked bodies that live forever" as well as "wicked souls that live forever".

    Rather as God said in Ezek 18 "The soul that sins IT SHALL die".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In the case of the death of ALL mankind - when the PERSON dies the body returns to dust and the "spirit returns to God that gave it" Eccl 12.

    The ESSENCE of the person - in that separated and dormant state IS WITH GOD. And then God places it INTO a glorified body at the 1Thess 4 event -- THUS (and so in this way) are those (persons) to be ever WITH THE LORD.

    Why would you quote a text like this that states that these PEOPLE are in a dormant state and that "THE DEAD in Christ rise first".

    You might as well be quoting Rev 20:4 saying that the dead souls "COME TO LIFE" at the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection that is the focus of the entire NT Church - the resurrection that Paul speaks of in 1Thess 4.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The 2nd death is NOT a "dirt nap" it is "DESTRUCTION of both body and soul".

    The first death is where the PERSON is dead - the spirit returns to God who gave it - and the soul is in that dormant state needing to "COME TO LIFE" as Rev 20:4 states it when the souls of the righteous "COME to LIFE".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I guess you could "eisegete" that way.

    Or you could simply read the Bible. In 1Peter 1 Peter sets the context SHOWING us that the "Sprit of Christ WITHIN them" was preaching the Gospel of salvation that WE experience and teach today. This had nothing to do with God the Son going back in time or sending His God spirit to the wicked living right at the time of the flood.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As we saw in John 11 and 1Thess 4 God SHOWS that those PERSONS that die are dormant - are ASLEEP. For this reason in Isaiah 8:19-20 God forbids communication with the dead - since in fact that is communcation with demons. Those who say "WHy should I LISTEN to God's Word on this point? What possible harm can come to me by ignoring it?" -- are being willingly ignorant of the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of Christians today "pray to the dead"!!

    And then there is 2Thess 2 --

    5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
    6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    8 Then
    that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;


    9 that is, the one
    whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10 and with
    all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.



    In Matt 16 Peter said he accepted Christ as the Savior - the Son of God -- but then balked at ALSO accepting the truth that Christ would die on the cross. To receive a "LOVE of the truth" is to be willing to set aside your own man-made traditions IM.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At the death of ALL mankind the "spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12.

    That is NOT just a statement about the GOOD guys - but about ALL. The PERSON the SOUL is then in a dormant state.

    The "LIVING know that they will die but the dead know not anything" --

    spirit departs and returns to God "who gave it". God GIVES life and then that life returns to Him in the form of the essence of the PERSON - in dormant form until placed back into a body. "unclothed" as Paul states it in 2Cor 5:1-8

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    John, chapter 11

    "26": And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    We know its not the body and we know its not the spirit for the spirit never dies of the good and evil but if you believe there is a part of you that never dies and its not the body.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In John 11 Christ said "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM"

    In John 11 Christ said "Lazaurs IS dead"

    The person - was dead (in the state of death) but at the same time Christ consider the PERSON of Lazarus to be "asleep".

    Clearly the body returning to dust "is not asleep" you can not "wake it".

    The spirit "of all mankind" goes back to God "who gave it" at death Eccl 12.

    The living soul is the concept of the spirit placed into the body - as we saw in Gen 2. And God breathed into man the breath of life (the spirit) and man BECAME a living soul. (The same thing that the creatures BECAME in Gen 2 on day 6 when God breathed life into them).

    living "beings".

    As Rev 20:3-4 points out "the souls... came to life" at the resurrection of the dead (the dead in christ according to 1Thess 4) that takes place at the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:4-6 "The rest of the dead" did not come to life until after the 1000 years were completed.

    This shows that before the "souls came to life" they were considered "the dead" or 'among the dead'.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I have always believed that the Lord was first speaking of the soul of Lazuras when He said "Lazuras sleepeth". I believe he was talking about the body when He made sure they understood when He said "Lazuras is dead".

    The souls in Rev 20: 3-4 in the KJV says "they lived and reigned with Christ". I believe just what it says that they were with Christ and reigning.

    According to this Scripture there must be three parts for we know the body dies at some point, yet there is a soul and spirit with the body in the grave.

    1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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