Soul Sleep

Well, at least I have found someone that realizes that there are parts of Rev that jump forward. Now if I could only get you to see that the 1000 years jump backward we would be in sequence.
Do you think that Rev 15 could be the beginning of the silence in Heaven for space of 1/2 hour?

 

But you have to admit - that having the event of the 2nd coming in Rev 19 (and remember there are no chapters in the actual text) and then the binding of Satan and the resurrection of the saints in Rev 20 JUST as we see in 1Thess 4 associated with the coming of Christ -- AND THEN the 2nd resurrection and the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire and the new earth -- trying to insert a "jump back 1000 years" idea in the middle of this - you have to 'want to do it first" -- nothing in the text argues for it.

Which means - it is obviously not exegesis.

However - I think the real point for the context of this thread is the statement about the "souls coming to life" and the "REST of the DEAD remaining DEAD until AFTER the 1000 years".

We seem to both agree that 1000 years is a long time - you just think it is LONGER than 1000 years because you don't like the idea that it could be an actual 1000 years.

But the point remains - if the souls of those who are ALREADY saints and were ALREADY slain for as martyrs "come to life" while the REST of the dead (those that were NOT already saints - those that were NOT slain as martyrs - those over whom the second death DOES have power) did NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years were finished -- then the 1Thess 4 concept of "sleep" and the John 11 concept of "sleep" is preserved EVEN in Rev 20.

BTW - arent' you supposed to be some place? Church? You must be getting in a few posts before Sunday School the way I do just before Sabbath School

in Christ,

Bob

 

I have to be there at 10:00. I just drinking my coffee and checking the posts.
Have a good day!

According to your belief after Rev 20 there is no one left to judge or wrath to pour on.

Where in Rev do you believe we are at now Bob?

 

BobR;
1. Do you consider When Jesus arose first from the grave and many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose also and went into that Holy City, to be a Resurrection?

 

Yes - but it is not future to John writing on Patmos.

When John looks into the future - he did not see Jarius' daughter raised from the dead or the resurrection of Christ or the resurrection of Lazarus -- he saw those who had overcome the Mark of the Beast - being raised.

These details are explicit in the text of Rev 20:2-5.

When Paul looks into the same future - he describes it in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15 showing that Christ has already been raised - but those saints who are yet to be raised -- waiting until the 2nd coming.

It is pretty amazing the way that 1Cor 15 and 1Thess 4 and Rev 20 all agree on this fact of Christ raised in the PAST - historically then those who ARE alseep - who ARE Christ's to BE raised in the future at the "First Resurrection" -- after which the REST of the dead will be raised -- when 1000 years passes from the FIRST resurrection to the 2nd.

1Cor 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's [b]at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.[/B]

 

Well, he spoke in past tense for some reason and there is plenty in Rev. that is not the future but the past even to the creation. I wonder if you consider it a Resurrection and Jesus was the firstfruits and if you and I know about it then I am sure John knew about it, I wonder why John did not call it the First Resurrection as I do and in Rev the 2nd and third of which I only agree on one in Rev or future.

You speak of when John looked into the future but you do agree that he saw the past also don't you?

 

John is clear in Rev 1 that these are things "which must shortly come to pass".

John is very clear when he shows a past event -- and it is very obvious that the Rev 19 coming of Christ is future - the resurrection of the saints future - the 1000 years future the great white throne judgment future etc

Rev 19, 20, 21 all in sequence. None of those chapters jumps back to the death of Christ.

They all point to the glorious future and the end of the world.

And you would have to agree that IF you did not already NEED to insert the idea that "this is the part that breaks context and jumps back 2000 years before the events in Rev 19" that the reader would not know from the text - to do such a thing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

1Cor 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's [b]at His coming[/b],
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, [b]when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The [b]last enemy that will be abolished is death.[/b]

Now let's "rewrite" that as if the resurrection of the saints ALREADY took place as in Matt 27 those raised with Christ.

"But each in his own order Christ the first fruits and all those raised with Christ and all those raised since Christ to this very day -- and all those raised from this day onward until coming ". Yet no such thing can be inserted into the text.

Furthermore - Paul is very clear in 1Cor 15 about this physical bodily future resurrection. Paul and John are in perfect agreement about this event taking place IN the future at "His coming".

 

No need to insert anything for "the hour is coming when all that are in the grave shall come forth". In other words both saint and sinners in "one resurrection" which is to come. Sheep on the right and goats on the left. Sheep accend into Heaven and Goats left to be judged and face the wrath.

 

"The hour is coming" points to the future for "those who ARE ASLEEP" to rise.

As Paul says "the dead IN CHRIST rise FIRST" -- not the "wicked"

As John says in Rev 20 those "over whom the 2nd death has NO power" will rise in that future resurrection when the souls of those who were slain by the beast power "come to life".

As Paul says in 1Cor 15 this happens AT His coming - IN that future time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I look at that "dead in Christ will rise first" and try to remember how Jesus said it would be "all" would come forth and think of building "one" bridge, you start on one side and build across but when done you have one bridge. Same is true in the next resurrection.

 

In John 5 Jesus said there would be in the future two resurrections - one of the Just and one of the wicked.

In Rev 20 John says that in the future there are two resurrections with the FIRST being the resurrection of the holy and blessed over whom the second death has no power. The one that does not happen until the Rev 19 event. The one that does not happen until after the beast power arises and persecutes the saints. John says that at the time of the future resurrection Satan is bound and can no longer tempt or deceive. In 2Cor4 we are told that Satan now deceives the world as "the god of this world" until that future point John identifies in Rev 20. Peter describes Satan now as a roaring lion going out to devour us. Rev 12 shows him as a dragon and speaks "woe woe woe" to the earth during this phase.

In 2 Peter 1 - Peter tells us to focus the entire NT church entirely on that one future event - of the resurrection of the Righteous AT the coming of Christ.

In 1Thess 4 Paul calls this future resurrection the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" -

In 1Cor 15 Paul continues to point us to the future resurrection when death WILL be abolished.

The agreement of all these sources on this scenario is impressive - yet you claim it is confusing - or at the least you show a great deal of effort in "reworking it" so that what is naturally seen in the text - has to be redone.

In my view you are pushing the ball uphill all the way -- I on the other hand get to take these texts just as they read.

Lucky me.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I only see one general resurrection in this passage.

Rev: 20 depends on when you believe the First resurrection is and you would have to discount the actual First resurrection when Jesus arose from the grave and many of the bodies of the saints arose with Him.

I agree with all of the following but believe it is talking about the General resurrection when (all) in the grave shall come forth.

In 2 Peter 1 - Peter tells us to focus the entire NT church entirely on that one future event - of the resurrection of the Righteous AT the coming of Christ.

In 1Thess 4 Paul calls this future resurrection the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" -

In 1Cor 15 Paul continues to point us to the future resurrection when death WILL be abolished.

Well, I don't have to discount the real and actual First Resurrection.

 

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

AND

they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Two distinct resurrections -- one is the resurrection of LIFE - the one where the "blessed and holy are raised "OVER whom the second death has NO POWER". The dead in Christ obviously "rise FIRST"

But there is ANOTHER resurrection "THE REST of the dead DID NOT COME TO LIFE - UNTIL the 1000 years were COMPLETED"

And so we have the resurrection of damnation - "over these the second death" DOES HAVE POWER!

In 1Cor 15 it is only that FIRST resurrection that is described as being future and has being our focus "FOR WE shall not ALL sleep but we shall ALL BE changed" - with what 1Cor 15 calls the "heavenly body" -- THE FOCUS of the church is on that Future FIRST resurrection shown in 1Cor 15. "FIX your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" - that future event is our focus and hope.

1Thess 4 "Therefore comfort one another with these words" -- "THUS shall we EVER be WITH the Lord" -

The FIRST resurrection is continually the focus and future hope of the Church.

the FIRST resurrection is at the APPEARING (1Thess 4) at the APPEARING of Rev 19 at the COMING of the Lord. IT is the future time when even the "Souls" that were slain by the beast who not received the mark of the beast "come to life" and reign with Christ --

"But the REST of the dead did NOT come to life UNTIL..." what was "Finished"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well Bob, we just have to agree to disagree. I knew I would not change your veiw and though you make some good points I still see the resurrection in John as one general resurrection. I also know according to scripture there has been one already and Jesus was the Firstfruits of them that slept that arose.
I also believe when it says "blessed is he that hath a part in the First Resurrection" it is saying "blessed is he that hath a part in Christ".
Good discussion but we going over same ground again now.