Southern Baptist Theology and Catholicism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by genesis12, Jan 13, 2006.

  1. genesis12

    genesis12
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    According to the Bible God is our Judge and Lawgiver. We are to live our lives according to the dictates of Holy Scripture found in The New Testament or Covenant. As a Christian Southern Baptist, I am pro-life and pro-monogamous marriage between adults of the opposite gender. I take issue with many, if not all, of the doctrines and traditions of the Catholic church, as well. How do I / we reconcile these stated positions with our enthusiastic support for Catholic Justices Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, John Roberts, and soon-to-be Justice Samuel Alito? How is it that the Christian community is so strongly in support of them? (As an aside, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is Catholic, Justice Anthony Kennedy is Catholic, and Justice David Souter is Episcolpalian - not far removed.) Let me repeat my ONLY question: How do I / we Christians so enthusiastically support these persons in exceptionally critical positions, who are diametrically opposed to us, theologically? Is this analagous to statements we hear rather often, like "I'd vote for the devil if......." or "I'd sell my soul if......" ???
     
  2. OldRegular

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    You say that Roman Catholics are "diametrically opposed to us, theologically". You should provide some specifics for discussion. We cannot assume that because of the errors in the theology of the various "catholic" and orthodox" groups they are devoid of "true believers".

    May I say that I have debated Roman Catholics and Orthodox on another Forum. My salvation was questioned less by these folks on that Forum than it has been on this Forum by dispensationalists.

    As I have noted on numerous occasions on this Forum Southern Baptist theology has changed drastically in the last 100 years. Whereas, we once believed in the doctrine of election and that God has only one people, the Church many Southern Baptists have embraced the false doctrines of Arminianism and Dispensationalism.

    In fact I suspect that the theology of Southern Baptists has changed more in the last 100 years than that of the Roman Catholics.
     
  3. IveyLeaguer

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    I would support all four of them if they had nothing to do with religion. Your premise is wrong, it's about how they will serve, not where they are theologically.

    FWIW, I thought Thomas was a charismatic episcopalian or something like that. Guess not.
     
  4. gb93433

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    What did you do with the thieves in the BFA? They were SBC.
     
  5. genesis12

    genesis12
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    So your answer to my question is........ ?? [​IMG]
     
  6. nate

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    If the judges stand on the Constitution and are pro-life and do not support gay marriage why can we not support them. Sure we have theological differences but I'm SBC and I'm sure you and I would disagree on issues. If one disassociates himself with everyone he disagrees with theologically he may be very lonely.
     
  7. Psalm 100

    Psalm 100
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    The issues they would be ruling on would have more to do with common unity as Christians- abortion and heterosexual marriage and the such. I can't foresee a case coming up that would delve into a theological debate of Catholicism vs Protantism.
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

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    Do you mean CBF? I would assume you won't have anything to do with them since you declared them to be heretics. Who stpld what? You stold their denomination, colleges, and seminaries. What did they steal?
     
  9. shannonL

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    Shhhh you can hear Straight and Narrow's denomination quietly sinking. That is what happens to a denomination when the Bible is tossed aside and people like Tony Campolo are one of the leading spokesmen for your denom.
    It is what would have happened to the SBC if people of the CBF ilk would have continued to teach in SBC seminaries.
    Maybe the AB churches that support the likes of Campolo and his theology can find a home in the CBF. If you really want to be different and herectical then become a part of the Emergent Church Movement led by Tony C's good buddy Brian McClaren and others.
     
  10. Kiffen

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    We don't elect people because of their theology. Their jobs are not to interpret the Bible.
    Their jobs are to defend, protect and interpret the US Constitution.

    The USA is not a Church nor are Justices pastors. They are to be chosen on their knowledge of Constitution Law.

    Apply this to other parts of your life. If we do, then we can only choose Baptist plumbers or Baptist carpenters, Baptist lawyers etc..to do work for us. No. You choose them because they are experts in their field of work, not because of which Church they belong.
     
  11. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Let me repeat my ONLY Baptist theologian [​IMG] question, based upon Isaiah 33:22 ... How do I / we Christians so enthusiastically support these persons in exceptionally critical positions, who are diametrically opposed to us, theologically? Is this analagous to statements we hear rather often, like "I'd vote for the devil if......." or "I'd sell my soul if......" ???

    1. I'll help you. "we Christians" = non-Catholics.
    2. "exceptionally critical" = self-explanatory. However, since some missed it, I'll add that they (unlike carpenters and plumbers) determine the course of our lives (prohibitions on school prayer, Ten Commandments, prayer in public places <including Washington, D.C., on the steps of the Supreme Court>).
    3. "diametrically opposed, theologically" = Catholic doctrine bears no resemblance to Biblical doctrine, i.e., tradition, indulgences, grace imparted thru eating the actual flesh and drinking the actual blood of Jesus, the Pope as The Vicar of Christ, "the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth."

    In recent Supreme Court decisions Justices have gone outside the U.S. Constitution to examine and apply laws from other countries in arriving at their decisions. Justice Breyer is the most recent example of one who reads the opinions of courts in other countries and quotes them in his rulings. Will Catholic Justices one day look to The Vatican for their decisions? According to Rome, the eternal destiny of a Catholic hangs in the balance should he/she choose to disregard the "Vicar of Christ" (above).

    .........and I'll close with this quote from Adam Smith, author of "Wealth of Nations."

    "The constitution of the Church of Rome may be considered the most formidable combination that was ever formed against the authority and security of civil government, as well as against the liberty, reason and happiness of mankind."

    Does that help? ;)
     
  12. shannonL

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    Gen. 12,

    Right on bro.

    Old Reg. Catholics pray to Mary. Baptist pray to Jesus. That is enough for me right there. But wait there is more. Go read the 2003 council of Trent document. It hasn't been changed since the days the RC was burning christians at the stake.
    What is your point REG. Some RC's didn't question your salvation but some baptist do so in your mind that gives their theology some traction? I'm kind of shocked that you posted that. You usually have rebutes for your views that are pretty solid. Furthermore, our doctrine as changed way more over the past 100 years than the RC church. BIG DEAL the RC theological foundation is not square to begin with. Again go read RC docs. concerning the RC church. It hasn't changed at all my friend. The RC chuch only wants to soften up protestants to get the power back that the RC church once had. Then the hammer will fall on true believers again like it did during reformation days.
    BTW, you know what is creepy? the Vatican has a diplomat to the UN. Whats up with that. They also have embassys throughout the world. That is just not right. Sure there are some saved catholics but the RC doctrine is from the pit of hell period. WE are very different. I'm going to Spain as a missionary. Why don't I just stay home since the RC church has it so together? Please I tend to believe more and more that the RC church is the whore church mentioned in Rev. DOWN WITH POPERY IT IS FROM THE PIT!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Nothing I said endorsed the theology of the "catholic" or "orthodox" groups. In fact their theology is grossly flawed, at best borderline heresy and at worst heresy. However, am not going to attempt in one post to list or refute them. If you like I can send you a number of my rebuttals of their doctrine by PM. I sent you one.

    As far as the 2003 Council of Trent I was not aware that one occurred. I am in posession of a copy of the Canons and Dogmatic Decrees of the Council of Trent A. D. 1563 as published by Philip Schaff.

    I would point out, however, that the Roman Catholic denomination did not become the Roman Catholic denomination overnight. It took several hundred years for all the doctrinal errors to be introduced, probably beginning with the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, culminating in the doctrine of the infallability of the pope promulgated in 1870 at Vatican I, and worsened by the doctrine of the assumption of Mary [Vatican II I believe].

    It is for the above reason I compared the changes in Southern Baptist doctrine of the last 100 years to those in the Roman Catholic denomination. We Baptists have the foolish idea that a little error introduced here and a little error introduced there does not mean much. However, a series of little errors become a series of big errors and eventually heresy.

    I have pointed out that in the last 100 years the Southern Baptists have moved from the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation to the doctrine of the Sovereignty of Man in Salvation. The erosion of this doctrine is discussed exhaustively in the book By His grace and for His Glory by Thomas J. Nettles. There are a number of books that discuss the invasion of the Churches by the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.

    [ January 14, 2006, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]
     
  14. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Briefly, can you explain that? I've been around the SBC for many moons, in several churches, and have never found that to be true. Maybe you meant "some" Southern Baptists have moved?
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Briefly, can you explain that? I've been around the SBC for many moons, in several churches, and have never found that to be true. Maybe you meant "some" Southern Baptists have moved? </font>[/QUOTE]Note particularly the highlighted items and compare them with Baptist beliefs of this time. I would also suggest that you read Nettle's book.

    When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

    I. The Scriptures
    The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.

    II. God
    There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

    III. The Trinity
    God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.

    IV. Providence
    God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

    V. Election
    Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life—not because of foreseen merit in them, but of His mere mercy in Christ—in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.


    VI. The Fall of Man
    God originally created Man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

    VII. The Mediator
    Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law; suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

    VIII. Regeneration
    Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

    IX. Repentance
    Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

    X. Faith
    Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.


    XI. Justification
    Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

    XII. Sanctification
    Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ’s commands.

    XIII. Perseverance of the Saints
    Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

    XIV. The Church
    The Lord Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which He hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.

    XV. Baptism
    Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of Abstract of Principles giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord’s Supper.

    XVI. The Lord’s Supper
    The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

    XVII. The Lord’s Day
    The Lord’s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.

    XVIII. Liberty of Conscience
    God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

    XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.
     
  16. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Thanks. I'll study it on Monday. Tomorrow is a busy day! [​IMG]
     
  17. mioque

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    Some changes in Catholicism in the last century include, moving the age for First Communion from 12 to 6, adopting other languages than Latin during the liturgy, lifting the ban on eating meat on friday and lots more...

    (just pointing out that the RCC isn't quite as static as it is sometimes perceived)
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    We do not agree with their theology. We do agree with the principles they uphold.

    If one of them were Baptist, supportive of gay rights or murder rights (abortion), none in these forum will support any, except I guess, Joshua of the Baptist Board years ago.

    The oldsters here probably remember him.
     
  19. genesis12

    genesis12
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    To oldregular. Thanks. I see your point. I would still say that it is applicable to some, not all. I confess that I have personally become dispensatinal, als Ryrie and TDTS.
     

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