Southern Baptists and Tithing

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Russ Kelly, May 29, 2004.

  1. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly
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    I would like to enter into a debate with Southern Baptist leaders about tithing. From 1649 until 1963 the texts did not even appear on their Faith and Message. In 1963 the texts were added, but the word "tithe" still does not appear. Although this doctrine is not taught by most SBC church historians and most seminary theologians, it is forced upon denominational employees through the Position Paper.

    This doctrine is a vestige of the Mosaic Law which is hindering the church from preaching a pure grace-faith based gospel. I cannot understand why leaders will boldly debate almost every conceivable church doctrine --- except tithing.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    Russ,
    I am not a leader in the SBC, but you are correct. The tithe is not part of the church. Free will giving the first of every week is wthout any mention or thought of percentages, and any suggestion that the tithe is for the church does detract from grace and how we are to give. I am always amased at those who claim the tithe and they themselves do not follow the tithing system of the law. Sort of hypocritical.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Nor am I SBC, but think "tithing" a part of the Old Testament Kingdom that has no part in the New Testament Church.

    But hey, I'm dispensational, so try to keep the two separate as much as possible! [​IMG]
     
  4. Trotter

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    "Tithing" is not required, nor is "10%" set in stone. But structured giving is encouraged in the SBC.

    Ten percent is used as an example, not a directive. Any level of giving is greatly appreciated.

    If a person is not willing to give to the church, he is not usually very interested in it. When we give, we gain "ownership" in the whole ("ownership" is a term used to describe the mental acknowledgement that part of the results were because of our contribution).

    I and my family tithe. It's not always 10%. Sometimes it is less, sometimes it is more. But we give to the church in acknowledgement of the fact that God has given us all that we have.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  5. Michael52

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    I think it is a bit of a 'stretch' to demonstrate that it is a scriptural mandate. But, it certainly is a scriptural principle. When we talk about it in SS, I usually frame it in relation to home financial management and responsibility (gotta pay those bills, letting your children run naked is bad, etc). - Wow, hope this doesn't get me in trouble! [​IMG]

    Michael
     
  6. gb93433

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    That's what happens when leaders manipulate people trying to get them to do what they want.
     
  7. Russ Kelly

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    Trotter
    I have a Ph. D. in theology and give more than 10% of my income to the church. Yet SBC after SBC has rejected me simply because I do not call my giving "tithing" and desire to openly study the doctrine with them.

    Biblical tithing was ONLY food and was only required from farmers and herdsmen. Traders and craftsmen like Jesus and Paul were not required to give 10% of their non-food income.

    The SBC Position Paper for its workers EXPECTS them to tithe if they expect to work for them. Also, more and more SBC churches list tithing as an (unscriptural) requirement for deacons.

    Why is tithing a taboo doctrine? Why is it O.K. to discuss anything else openly in Sunday School except tithing?

    Why does every (Southern) Baptist confession of faith from 1649 until 1963 not even mention tithing texts??? I will almost guarantee you that movements are underway to add it as an expectd doctrine for all church members as soon as possible.

    Please do not not equate "tithing" with "freewill giving." I fully support scriptural means of giving.
    .......
    Michael152
    Tithing is NOT "certainly a scriprutal principle." Contrary to much propaganda, it was not even the "minimum" requirement in the O.T. unless you were a farmer or herdsman earning a living on land inside Israel. It is not taught nor implied in 1st Corinthains 16, nor 2nd Corinthains 8 and 9.

    The tithing taboo is the "leg irons" of the SBC that keeps it connected to the Mosaic Law instead of principles of grace giving which are far superior.
     
  8. Bro Tony

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    I am a SBC pastor who teaches the New Testament principles for giving. I do not use the word tithe when teaching my people about giving. I always teach them that giving is not a matter of finances, but a matter of the heart. I do not know what you are speaking of about the SBC "position", but anybody who knows anything about the SBC is that they don't and cannot mandate anything to the local churches. They do not nor can they tell a local church what to believe or teach. The day they try is the day I fly.

    Bro Tony
     
  9. Ben W

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    Is there a link to a document that contains the Tithe requirement?

    I can tell you that there are quite a number of denominations actually putting it in their doctrinal statement. The Apostolic Church for one.
     
  10. Michael52

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    Bingo!!! &lt;- Wow, hope that doesn't get me in trouble. [​IMG]

    About that "a matter of the heart" thing, I not sure which verse it is in, but I'm real sure it is a 'scriptural principle'. ;)

    Michael
     
  11. Trotter

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    Ben W,

    The Baptist Faith and Message

    This is a link to the Baptist Faith and Message, a statement of beliefs held by the SBC. Look for the section on Stewardship.

    Notice that it says nothing about a 'tithe'.

    Source: http://sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#xiii

    "cheerfully, regularly, systematically, proportionately, and liberally" does not constitute a ten percent tithe. Now, what individual churches do, well, that is up to the churches. The SBC does not try to 'force' anything on member churches.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  12. Russ Kelly

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    I invite you gentlemen to carefully look at my website, especially the last three articles on the list at the left on the home page. Read the official Position Paper for denominational employees. This paper is not circulated, but it is in full force and demands tithing.

    www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com

    I would dearly love to find a SBC church in my area that agrees with Bro. Tony. I am SBC at heart and feel out of water when they reject me.

    While the 1925 Faith and Message does not even contain the TEXTS for tithing, the 1963 Faith and Message does. My comments on the Southern Baptist Encyclopedia traces how the denomination has systematically tried to force this doctrine on its people.

    The SBC website gives testimony of many SBC churches that already make tithing mandatory for church membership.

    If you know of any SBC leaders who are open to discussing this, please let me know.
     
  13. LandonL

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    There were no 'Southern Baptists' until around the Civil War era. Therefore of course our papers from 1649 'till then wouldn't have anything about tithing in them--they didn't exist!

    And yes, the SBC position on tithing is unscriptural (this comes from an SBCer). As long as you're giving what you feel is right and not lying about it (yes, you Ananias and Sapphira), then you're good.
     
  14. Bro Tony

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    Russ,

    Thank you for the link. It does not surprise me that would be the position promoted in the literature of the SBC. Many times in the past they have tried to promote things that are not clearly biblical. I remember years ago the material dealt with the book of Jonah, the writer of the material stated that he felt that Jonah was an allegory and did not literally take place. That is why in our adult classes we have qualified teachers who teach out of the Word and not material sold by the denomination. It is also why I teach my people to be biblically literate so they can evaluate all things to see if they have biblical foundation.

    I find it sad that the denomination would be going in this direction rather than teaching the New Testament standard of giving oneself totally to the Lord and giving of your finances as the Lord leads out of the wonderful relationship you have with Him.

    I hope you will find a SBC church in your area that has not given up its autonomy to the denomination. One that understands the denomination exists to serve the churches and not the other way around.

    I do fear that the denomination is overstepping its role in the life of the local church. Before long, if things do not change, there will be a literal hiarchy in the SBC denomination. I again say when that happens I will be forced to leave the denomination. I believe it is getting close. May the Lord help us.

    Bro Tony
     
  15. Russ Kelly

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    LandonL
    I certainly realize that the SBC did not come into existence until just before the Civil War. I trace the history of Baptists until that time and trace teh SBC after that time on my web site. Their SBC Encyclopedia article might interest you (luckily, now out of print).

    I am almost positive that tithing evolved over hundreds of years after 1776 in most of the current evangelilcal churches such as Baptists, Methodists, charismatics, etc. It seems that state churches like the Episcopalisns transferred it to the U.S. while the others at first resented and rejected tithing.

    Only after the new churches had become large and setled did they begin adding a doctrine which was foreign to their original theology.
     
  16. DeclareHim

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    I think giving from your heart is what its about not how much because in truth God doesnt need us to give but he likes "a cheerful giver" I believe as long as we give a regular monthly offering to God that he will be pleased.
     
  17. Russ Kelly

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    I have come to the conclusion that:
    1.Most Baptists at the church level do not believe that tithing is a valid New Covenant doctrine.
    2.Most Baptist semnary level theologians and text books do not teach tthing as a valid New Covenat doctrine.
    3.Most Baptist church historians do not either.
    4.BUT the SBC ledership in Nashville pushes it; probably all State Conventions teach it, and most Baptist preachers promote it, especially SBC, do teach it!!!

    What is going on???
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Money-grubbing is not just for the unsaved . .
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Bro Tony,

    I wish to thank you for the love that you have for Christ and His people, and the way that you demonstrate that love as a Baptist pastor. [​IMG]
     
  20. Craigbythesea

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    The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature has a good article in volume 10 on tithing from the Biblical perspective. The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics has a good article in volume 12 on tithing from the historical perspective.
     

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