Southern Baptists & the Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by OldRegular, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 states:

    "The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation."

    John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church:

    "If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot."

    If Walvoord is correct it would appear that the belief of a multitude of Southern Baptists in the pre-trib Rapture of the Church is not consistent with Southern Baptist Doctrine.
     
  2. Paul33

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    Al Moehler had alot to do with rewriting the Baptist Faith and Message. Moehler, of course, is reformed in theology.

    Walvoord is right. If the people of God consist of believing Jews and Gentiles, then the church as the people of God will go through the tribulation. Thus, dispensationalism's need to see two people of God: the NT church and OT Israel.

    It is the grid of dispensationalism that requires a pre-tribulation rapture and not the Scriptures, as Walvoord has admitted.

    The pre-trib rapture has been so widely taught among fundamentalists and evangelicals that even SB have adopted it. Now that dispensationalism is waning, it will be interesting to see this effect on the SB. Falwell and LaHaye would be the leading spokespersons for this teaching in SBC circles today. Two relative newcomers to the SBC.
     
  3. APuritanMindset

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    Interesting that this should come up again. Just recently, I was questioning the validity of the pre-trib rapture and never came to a perfect conclusion other than that Scripture didn't seem to teach that belief. This confirms even more that pre-trib is questionable, if not completely wrong.

    Could you please show me the Scriptures about the tribulation that speak of believing Jews and Gentiles being there? This will greatly help me in coming to a conclusion.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    OldRegular: "If Walvoord is correct it would appear that the
    belief of a multitude of Southern Baptists in the pre-trib
    Rapture of the Church is not consistent with Southern Baptist Doctrine."

    What Walvoord says seems good for pre-trib rapture/resurreciton to me.
    Here is what I agree with that Walvoord says:

    Walvoord: "If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured
    before end-time events? it becomes very important to define
    the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or
    saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the
    Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described,
    and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant."

    There are two churches:

    1. the Gentile Age (Church Age) mostly gentile (some Messaniac
    Jews) born-again redeemed elect saints
    2. The Jewish Israeli elect saints

    Church 1 will not be in the Tribulation time
    Church 2 will be in the Tribulation time

    In fact, the Tribulation time is God's Plan to get a
    maximuim number of Jewish Israeli elect saints church members
    into the Millinnial Kingdom. At the middle of of the
    Tribulation Period, when the Antichrist shall enter the
    restored Temple in Jerusalem and commits the Abomination
    of Desolation (AOD) then many of the the Jews will realise
    their false messiah, the Antichrist, is not their Messiah
    but Jesus is the true Messiah. The Jews who accept Jesus
    as their Messiah will become saved and become
    The Jewish Israeli elect saints.

    Walvoord: "If they are part of the church, then the church
    is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether
    the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot."

    I disagree with this statement. Yes, the Jews are part of the
    church as seen from eternity. The question of whether
    the right question to ask is:
    Will the Gentile Age (Church Age) mostly gentile (some Messaniac
    Jews) born-again redeemed elect saints church go into
    the Tribulation Period? No
    the Gentile Age (Church Age) mostly gentile (some Messaniac
    Jews) born-again redeemed elect saints shall not go into the
    Tribulation Period, the pre=tribulation raputure/resurreciton
    precludes the Gentile Age (Church Age) mostly gentile (some Messaniac
    Jews) born-again redeemed elect saints
    from going into the Tribulation period.

    Personally i've been a pretrib Southern
    Baptist Convention member for 52 years.
    The pretribulation SBCs outnumber the
    other SBCs (which also believe in traditional
    eschatology).
     
  5. church mouse guy

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    In my thinking, you are correct when you write that "...pre-trib is questionable, if not completely wrong."

    I think that Revelation chapter 20 teaches that the Rapture takes place after Satan is bound up for a 1000 years.

    Finally, one Hoosier to another, I cannot see that Christians are divided into Jews who believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour and gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. In Christ, there is no Jew and Greek.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Questions.

    1. What happens to the Old Testament Saints? I don't believe I saw them in your Church 1 or Church 2.

    2. Which of these Churches is the one Jesus Christ said He would build [Matthew 16:18]?

    3. Which one is the Bride of Jesus Christ?

    4. What is the Scriptural basis for a pre-trib "rapture"?

    5. What happens to the dispensational "take Scripture at its face value" in the interpretation of

    John 5:28, 29
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    And Acts 24:15
    15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.?

    6. When did, or will, that "middle wall of partition" which was broken down in Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:14] get rebuilt?

    7. What temple?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    OldRegular: //4. What is the Scriptural basis for a pre-trib "rapture"?//

    Rules of the Baptist Board:
    "13. No cross posting. Do not post the
    same message to more than one forum."

    The answer to your question has been posted about three times this
    month. I like to at least give lip service to the rules
    around here.

    These answers are found in another forum:

    Here is a locked 20-page discussion including many
    of my writings. It takes me about three each 20-page
    discussions to use all the material that I have written
    in the past. Nobody seems to come up with any new objections :(

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/2845.html?

    Here is a new thread in the All other Religions Forum
    (which Baptists may participate in).

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/2930.html#000001
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    I do, but you won't/can't answer. I'll try once more:

    Find me a SBC pastor or theologian who believed what you do, pre-1800.
    By the way there are many A-Mill and Post- Mill Southern Baptist.
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Whether they did or not is a moot point. It wasn't the last days yet. [​IMG]


    many shall run to and fro, This holiday weekend is the largest number of travelers in recorded history in this country alone. Over 31 million vehicles on the roads, over 16 million passengers in the skies.

    knowledge shall be increased.

    For the first time in history, knowledge is at the click of a mouse - knowledge of anything anyone in the world wants to know. Not counting all the knowledge of science, medicine, and technology.

    The burst in knowledge and travel and great inventions have continually happened since 1800.

    We are living in Daniel's Last Days. [​IMG]

    [ November 26, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    OldRegular: "1. What happens to the Old Testament Saints?
    I don't believe I saw them in your Church 1 or Church 2."

    Church 2: The Jewish Israeli elect saints.
    In the OT they were Israeli. In the NT they are Jewish.


    OldRegular: "7. What temple?"

    The 3ed temple.

    In 1987 I talked to a Jewish Rabbinical student of the
    sect of the Pharisees. (Yes, the Pharisee faction
    still lives on. Pharisee is to Jew as
    Fundamentalist is to Christian).

    Anyway, I'm a gentile. Save for the safety of the
    screens between us, this Orthodox Jew cannot talk to
    me, a gentile. But there is safety across the internet.

    I posted the question: How will you know when Messiah
    has come? Here is his answer. The Messiah will do these
    things when he comes:

    1. Bring Peace to Yisrael
    2. Restore the daily sacrifice
    3. Restore the Temple on Temple Mount, Yerusalem, Yisrael

    Note this is exactly the scenario of what happens when
    the Church Age born-again redeemed elect saints are yanked out of the
    world at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    and the Antichrist comes to a place of authority.
    (full authority comes later at mid trib.

    Immediately thereafter (perhaps a week or less) the
    one who is Antichrist will be known (though there will not
    be very many who know}, the Church Age born-again redeemed elect saints
    having gone missing. Antichrist shall
    do these three things. Note that almost
    immediately the Jews will get
    to begin the daily sacrifice on Temple Mount. The Temple goes
    exactly North of the Dome of the Rock. There is space on
    Temple MOunt in Jerusalem to build the Temple alongside the
    Dome of the Rock. The court of Israel contains the place
    for the sacrifice; the building containing the Holy Place
    and the Holy of Holies can be built while the sacrifices
    go on in the court of Israel. This Temple building is necessary
    to be complete at the middle of theTriublation. The Antichrist
    must enter the Holy of Holies to commit the Abomination
    of Desolation (AOD).
     
  11. Daniel David

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    Grasshopper, can you show me one theologian / pastor who openly taught and published justification by faith alone after the fathers and prior to the reformation?

    It matters little whether I can produce a name. Truth does not depend on it being published widespread.

    The fathers were unqestionably premillenial. They also expected Christ's return at any time. That would make them believe in an imminent return and a 1,000 year kingdom.
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Ed: -------------------------------------------
    Nobody seems to come up with any new objections
    ------------------------------------------------

    Grasshopper: "I do, but you won't/can't answer. I'll try once more:"

    Careful there not to get whiplash patting
    yourself on the back [​IMG]

    I must admit i've not talked to a a-trib a-mill
    preterist before. But i don't see much argument.
    BTW I don't have

    Grasshopper: "Find me a SBC pastor or theologian
    who believed what you do, pre-1800."

    1. You do not assign me Master's degree thesis work. :(
    2. I don't have any of their e-mail addys. [​IMG]

    Grasshopper: "By the way there are many A-Mill and Post- Mill Southern Baptist."

    That is what I mean when I said:
    The pretribulation SBCs outnumber the
    other SBCs (which also believe in traditional
    eschatology
    ).
    This implies that the other SBC positions as you
    noted are "traditional eschatology".

    church mouse guy: "I think that Revelation chapter 20 teaches that the Rapture takes place after Satan is bound up for a 1000 years."

    How so? Request specific verses and how you understand
    they say what you said.

    Grasshopper: "6. When did, or will, that "middle wall of partition" which was broken down in Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:14] get rebuilt?"

    Future tense subjects get present tense treatment.
    What Jesus did on the Cross shall eternally unite the
    Gentile Christians and the Jewish Israeli saints.
    In the Gentile age (AKA: Church age) they are seperate.
    Well, the Messanic Jews who are physical Jews who believe that
    Jesus is the Jewish Messiah will be raptured with the
    gentile Church folks (probably).

    Yes, I have talked to two Messanic Jews who both mentioned that
    they cannot wait for the day that the Last Gentile that is
    going to get saved gets saved -- for then God will focus once again
    upon the Jews and the salvation of Millions of them.
    Of course what they say slaps down "Left Behind". This teaches
    There will be no gentiles saved during the
    Tribualtion. I do know that
    salvation in the Tribulation consists of stilborn Christians only.
    "Stilborn Christian" is a term from the 2ed century (0101-0200).
    "Stilborn Christian" is a Christian whose first confession
    of the Lordship of Jesus is followed almost immediately by
    martyrdom by death.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sister LadyEagle -- PReach it!

    BTW, there is a difference between "time of the end"
    (AKA: end times) and "last days".

    The last days began Day of Pentacost 33AD (some say
    29AD or 30AD):

    Acts 2:15-21 (HCSB)

    For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since
    it's only nine in the morning.
    16 On the contrary, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
    17 And it will be in the last days, says God, that I will
    pour out My Spirit
    on all humanity; then your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and your
    old men will dream dreams.
    18 I will even pour out My Spirit on My male and female slaves
    in those days, and they will prophesy.
    19 I will display wonders in the heaven above and signs
    on the earth below: blood and fire and a cloud of smoke.
    20 The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood,
    before the great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;
    21 then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    The Apostle Paul, writing in his letter to the church at Rome, speaking of the Old Testament, tells us: For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.[Romans 15:4] One could conclude then that we cannot really understand the New Testament without the Old Testament.

    Paul also tells us in the same letter: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.[Romans 9:6] I believe that Paul is making a distinction between ethnic Israel and the faithful remnant, spiritual Israel, the church of the Old Testament or as Stephen says the church in the wilderness.[Acts 7:38]

    The unity between spiritual Israel of the Old Testament and the New testament Church is demonstrated by
    1. Paul's parable of the olive trees [Romans 11];
    2. Galatians 3:8, 9: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham;
    3.Galatians 3:27-29; For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise; and, again speaking of the Old Testament Saints;
    4. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; : Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ; and finally
    5. Hebrews 11:39, 40; And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    From these Scripture it appears that the ONE Church includes the redeemed of all time and that the pre-trib rapture is the invention of Darby/Scofield! Now it is true that many of the early Church fathers were premillennial, however, they were not dispensational, a doctrine that was invented about 1830.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Daniel David -- preach it! [​IMG]

    Grasshopper: " ... From these Scripture it appears that the ONE Church"

    Yes, One eternal church from the time of the Advent
    through the Millinnial Kingdom, through out the new
    heavens and the new Earth.

    However, over time there are 2 different
    churches as i specified above.

    Grasshopper: " ... dispensational, a doctrine that was invented about 1830"

    HOw come it gets proved from the cannon, the Holy Bible, which
    was completely written by 96AD?

    BTW, I'll say the same thing to anybody who says the pretribulation
    rapture doctrine was made by John Darby in 1830. He put
    the name on it. BTW, i'm no defender of any dispensational
    theory, but i hate for it to get a bad rap by the method
    of misrepresentation.

    [ November 26, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
     
  16. OldRegular

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    The Pharisees were wrong 2000 years ago, why in the world would a Christian pay them any heed now?

    I take exception to your statement: "Pharisee is to Jew as Fundamentalist is to Christian." Pharisees were legalistic. I consider myself fundamentalist in that I believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of Scripture but I do not consider myself a legalist.

    Isn't it true that about 97% of the ethnic Jews in Israel are either agnostic or athiest?
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    OldRegular: "The Pharisees were wrong 2000 years ago,
    why in the world would a Christian pay them any heed now?"

    If God can use a talking donkey, he can use a 20th
    Century (1901-2000) Pharisee.
    God used even the evil Assyarians to speak to
    Israel 2500 years ago. All I claim is that what i said
    the Pharisee said. This is what the religious Jews today
    believe. I think the Antichrist will exploit the
    Jewish belief. The rest of my post was taken from
    the Holy Bible

    OldRegular: "I take exception to your statement: "Pharisee is to
    Jew as Fundamentalist is to Christian." Pharisees were
    legalistic. I consider myself fundamentalist in that
    I believe in the plenary verbal inspiration of Scripture
    but I do not consider myself a legalist."

    Then we will have to agree to disagree.
    There were legalistic Pharisees in Jesus's time.
    They were a subset of Pharisee-ical Jews.
    There are legalistic Fundamentalists in our time.
    They are a subset of fundamentalist Christians.
    Iconsider myself a non-leagalist fundamentalist
    like you.

    OldRegular: "Isn't it true that about 97% of
    the ethnic Jews in Israel
    are either agnostic or athiest?"

    I think the figure to be nearer 87%.
     
  18. prophecynut

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    Howdy ED

    I notice we have similar views. There is a difference in "the time of the end" and the "last days." The last days began with Pentecost, not 24 hour periods,but according to God's time of 1,000 years = 1 day. We are at the end of the sixth and final day that ends the Church age.

    The time of the end is mentioned in Dn. 11:35; 12:4,9. The length of this time is given in verse 7 as "a time, times and half a time" or 1 year + 2 years + 1/2 a year = 3.5 years. This is the length of the Trib when "all these things will be completed." All these things are given in Dn. 11:36-12:11; MT. 24:4-30; Rev. 6-19.

    Agree with you on a 3rd temple and required location north of the Dome of the Rock.
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Yes, you are quite correct, Brother Ed. I use the words interchangeably, and probably should not do that on a forum. End times is what I meant, though, as you probably knew, so thanks! [​IMG]
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sister LadyEagle -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Yes, the Bible verse you had said
    "end times".
     

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