Southern Baptists & the Pre-Trib Rapture

Lady Eagle

For many years I had the same understanding as you of the increase in knowledge occurring now in the last days. Acording to Dn. 12:4 it occurs during the time of the end when God judges earth during the Trib.

12:4 - "Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

The going here and there pertains to people searching the Word to gain knowledge of what transpires during the Trib. Think about it.

Daniel would of not know anything about the church age, therefore, these prophecies would not apply to it.

 

Would like to add a correction to the last days or end times.
The Mill or 7th day is included in the last days, making the 6th day second to the last.

 

Howdy Prophecynut!

I find these variation among pretribs and posttribs:

1. The meaning of "Day" and "day" in 2 Peter 3:10

2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB):
But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;
on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
the elements will burn and be dissolved,
and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


2. The meaning of "Day" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

3. The meaning of "apostasy" (HCSB) or "fall away" (KJV1769)
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1769):
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4. The meaning of "first" in Revelation 20:6

Revelation 20:6 (HCSB):
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over these,
but they will be priests of God and the Messiah,
and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

5. The meaning of the first "and" in Matthew 24:31

Matthew 24:31 (HCSB):
He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet,
and they will gather His elect from the four winds,
from one end of the sky to the other.

Interesting, the HCSB doesn't translate the Greek KAI that
starts this verse??? Maybe the SBC Bible is trying to
turn us away from pretrib?

Matthew 24:31 (KJV1769):
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

-Interesting, the difference between pretrib and postrib
is the meaning of a few key words

 

Yes, Ed is confused about more than just prophecy.

 

OK, here is is corrected
(I cannot correct the original post)
Sorry for any inconvienence.

 

I'd really rather discuss eschatology here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/2930.html
non-Baptist Christians can join us there,
but not here.
Here i have to keep duplicating my posts.
To that end, i now boycott this thread.

BTW, the non-Baptist Christians are generally
kinder than Baptist Christians

 

Also in Rev. 5:1 John sees God with a 7 sealed scroll in his right hand. In 6:1 Jesus begins to open those seals resulting in the fulfillment of the prophecies contain therein. Like wise Daniel's sealed scroll when opened will not result in the understanding of its prophecies, rather fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies in the same time period of fulfillment as the Rev. scroll.

ED Will change over

 

Amen to that!

 

LE

It is not speaking of IQ.

Col 1:10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,


Rev 22:10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

LE

Ed says everyone born after AD33 has lived in the 'last days". You say only those in this century live in the "last days" the inspired writer of Hebrews says he was living in the "last days" Who should I believe? Tough choice.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


DD

Good, then you won't use that reasoning against preterism anymore.

ED

Whats wrong Ed? Is it to tough a question? Is the new Heavens and New Earth of Rev. the same as the ones found in II Peter3 and Is. 65 and 66? And how does it fit into your little chart?

No it just means their more recent, not traditional.

 

GH, I already cleared that up about End Times / Last Days. Please read my post above. Thanks.

 

So who is right:you,Ed, or the writer of Hebrews?

 

What dispensational nonsense this poor thread has been peppered with!

The Scriptures that prove that the church goes through the tribulation are found in 2 Thessalonians. Writing to the church of the Thessalonians, Paul writes in:

2 Thess. 1:4-6 - 4 Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverence and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. 5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you are suffering. 6 God is just. He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

The relief from tribulation, both for the church at Thessalonica and for Paul, will take place when Christ appears in blazing fire with his powerful angels. This is not the secret rapture that dispensationalists speak of! This is the revelation of Jesus Christ in all of his glory with his angels! This is the return of Christ that takes place at the end of the tribulation period. This is an appearance that all will see! Christ gives relief to his persecuted church when he appears in BLAZING FIRE!

There is absolutely no way anyone can twist this Scripture to prove a secret rapture of the church before the tribulation period begins.

But wait. It gets even worse for our dispensationalist friends. In 2 Thess. 2:1-4 Paul clearly teaches that the day of the Lord will not take place until the lawless one is revealed. Most fundamentalist/evangelical Christians believe the lawless one is revealed in the middle of the 70th week - the 7 year tribulation period. Paul encourages the church at Thessalonica by reminding them that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" - the events that begin the day of the Lord (the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth) cannot take place until after the lawless one is revealed.

The day of the Lord begins when Christ appears in blazing fire and ends in the fire of the great white throne judgment!

1 Thess. 1:8-10 says, "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

When Christ returns in blazing fire, his saints from all of the ages will be glorified. He comes to be literally glorified in his holy people, a people that includes even you, the church of today! For a thousand years Christ will be glorified in his people, while the ungodly will be shut out from his presence as they await there final eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

2 Thessalonians undisputedly destroys the whole concept of two peoples, two returns, two resurrections, etc. Ephesians 2:11-22 and Romans 11 proves there is only one people of God who will find relief from persecution when Christ appears in blazing fire at the end of the tribulation period. Relief comes not before the tribulation, in a secret rapture, but at the end of the tribulation at the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ as he inaugerates the "day of the Lord" on earth!

Get rid of the phony dispensational distinctions and the end times events will finally make sense.

I expect the dispensationalists on this board to try to refute these Scriptures, but they won't be able to. As they try, watch them spin one fanciful interpretation after another in their attempt to explain away the plain meaning of Scripture.

 

Grasshopper, you're correct on the last days beginning with the appearance of God's Son, thanks.

 

The last days began with the ascension of Christ to heaven and will end with his second return at the end of the tribulation period.

The day of the Lord begins with his second return to earth and ends with the great white throne judgment.

Eternity begins with God making a new heaven and new earth and dwelling among men!

 

See you there, Brother Ed.

 

Grasshopper, when have I ever required the name of a preterist theologian? I don't care anything about preterism for the same reason I don't care about Mormon theology. I have no interest in studying error.

Further, it is the nondispies who try to argue from history. Dispensationalism was SYSTEMATIZED by Darby. However, the doctrine of premillenialism and imminence were already known.

 

Impossible! The SBC never existed until 1845. The south baptists seperated from the northern baptists over the issue of slavery.

 

The doctrine of premillenialism and imminence does not a dispensationalist make. It is the following error:

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.” </font>[/QUOTE]I do not follow Ryrie's logic on this point so maybe you can explain it to me. I distinguish Israel and the Church but I think that the Church is spiritual heir to Abraham nowadays. Therefore, I think that Jacob's troubles are also the Christian's troubles. Does Ryrie believe that the Christian is not spiritual heir to Abraham?