Sovereign Grace of God

Besides, West, I am not interested in changing your way of thinking.
That is not my job.
That is the Holy Spirit's job, and I am not about to usurp His authority.
I can only say Amen to what Father Abraham told the rich man :

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31).

Now, that is total depravity.

 

Pinoy,
Let's stick with "saving grace". The proof of such has not been provided.

We can again discuss the merits of your conviction that luke 16:31 is addressing total depravity on another topic if you wish to start it. But let's keep this topic on Grace.

 

Okay, we'll keep this topic on grace, Wes.
I've been with this board for, maybe, three years, and I've seen some pretty far out descriptions of grace.

Everybody seems to be agreed that grace is undeserved merit. The question seems to be when such grace is applied.

The Arminians say, when the sinner cries out to God and prays the sinner's prayer, he is then born again, and becomes a recipient of grace, and that is saving grace.

The Calvinist says practically the same thing, and calls it practically the same thing, except that for the Calvinist, the sinner repents and turns to God, upon hearing the gospel, and having heard the gospel, being brought into conviction by the Holy Spirit thru the preaching of the word, and so the blood of Christ is then appropriated to Him, he gets born again, and saved.

So they call it saving grace, far different from what you, I believe, are referring to, which is common grace, such as the sun shining upon both the wicked and the righteous.

I view grace rather very differently, and cause both Calvinists and Arminians to go red with apoplexy.

I believe that God in His Omniscience knew everything that was going to happen from beginning to end.

He knew there are those among the angels who will rebel and follow Satan.

He knew man will turn away from Him, fall into sin, have more faith in the pronouncements of the creature than of the Creator, and that sin must be punished, and will be punished.

Having known these, and because He is a God of mercy, He, in eternity past, covenanted with Himself to save a people unto Himself, by putting on human flesh, and thru His Son, Jesus Christ, the Word, bear the punishment for their sins.

These people's names He wrote down in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, and at the garden, promised to them, thru Adam, a redeemer, whose redemptive work He typified in many ways in the Old Testament.

These people were totally undeserving of such love and redemption, which redemption is based not on their theological understanding, nor on their earthly creed, nor on their race, nor language, NOR WORKS of righteousness (to which belong also faith, belief, and repentance).

In DUE TIME, he did come as the Redeemer, limiting Himself in the flesh to one miserable spot on this miserable earth, eking out his existence as a carpenter, until it was time for Him to proclaim the Kingdom of God, and go to Jerusalem as the Lamb of God, the passover for Israel's sins, Israel being the true Israel of God composed of both Jew and Gentile, scattered throughout the world, and not just the Jewish or Roman world of His time.

Having thus secured the redemption of His people, He rested in the right hand of the Father, in physical form, literally entering heaven, the Holy of Holies, WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, for the atonement of His people.

Before ascending, though, He instructs His apostles to wait for the ONLY ONE WHO IS HIS SUBSTITUTE ON EARTH, the Holy Spirit of promise, the Comforter (not that miserable, sickly, corrupt man seated at Rome pretending to be God's vicar), whose task is regeneration.

This work of regeneration is independent of the gospel, and of any means, especially not dependent upon the obedience of any man to the call to preach.

It is the work of God alone. Man has absolutely no part in it. No part in its planning, no part in its execution, no part in its everything.

That is grace.

 

Oops. Sorry, Wes.

Because of grace being associated with salvation, some call it Saving Grace.

I don't know about that.

The Bible does not have that term.

But, then again, the Bible does not have the term Rapture, yet, the concept is Scriptural.

Do you believe there is such a thing as the Rapture that will take place, Wes ?

 

The answer is quite simply this, from the very day Adam Sinned to the very present God has continually behaved in Grace toward man, and the rest of His creation, with one notable exception, the flood. but even then after plenty of warning, God was gracious to man, the one who had faith enough in God to obey and build an Ark. From the flood forward, to today, God has not been remiss on his promise.

Even Sodom and Gomorrah might have been spared if the inhabitants had repented. Yes God's grace has been with man all along, and there is but one God, so there is but one God's grace.

Because God's grace has been present we are not necessarily aware of it until something happens in our individual lives, such as "hearing the word, and believing". Then we become aware of God's ever present grace and from our vantage point we make dumb assertions regarding God's one grace!

We think that God has "bestowed something special on us" when in reality we, through faith in God, have been awakened to the presence of God's grace. So with the awakening comes the dumb thought that God's grace is suddenly a different flavor such as "prevenient" or "Saving". However, the truth is that God's grace did not change, we did!

Is it God's grace that saves us? NO! It is because God's grace is present that we can be saved through our faith in God. Faith that comes to us through hearing God's eternal word, a gift out of God's grace.

That has been true from Adam forward. but because of God's prior law of "sin and die", man was prevented from being saved through faith, even though faith was what God looked for in man. It was not until Jesus, another gift out of God's grace, atoned for sin that man could be saved! That is why Jesus atoned for ALL SIN IN ALL TIMES, ONCE for ALL. Now all men in all times can be saved by believing in Jesus. Does this grace extend to satan and his ilk? When has satan ever been called man? When have the fallen angels been called man? God's salvation is for man. So whether or not the demons believe in Jesus is irrevelent because they are not man.

No! I am not saying that All men are saved, for surely there are many who do not and will not believe, and they are not therefore saved by God.

God is the one who saves man. God's grace is how God has been behaving toward man. Salvation is God's free gift to any man out of all men who believes in Him. Eternal life with the Christ is another way to say salvation.

There is but one God's grace, it is constant, and consistant, unchanging even as God is unchanging. Any other name for grace is a man made invention, and should not be trusted.

 

wes the fact that you can be given a number of clear scriptures in the matter and reject the notion of 'saving grace' says something about your yieldedness to the spirit. If plain scripture can be shown to you and you cannot accept it- what more can any of us do but pray for you? You obviously strain at a gnat and swallow a camel in many ares of theology. this is just yet another.

 

Prove that "saving grace" exists as a separate grace of God.

Since you cannot, you have no case!

 

Prove that "saving grace" exists as a separate grace of God.

Since you cannot, you have no case! </font>[/QUOTE]You are probably correct. Since you refuse to accept the clear teaching of Scripture we cannot make a case. Sad!

 

Perhaps you just missed it the first time? maybe you're dense? i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and repost it:

 

Romans 8:30 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. .... THIS is saving grace...

You want common grace?
Try every heartbeat of every unbeliever that ever lived.

 

Talk about dense? You can't even read the truth correctly!

Because of God's grace, you are saved through faith, and not of yourselves Salvation is the Gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast.

While God is behaving graciously toward man, man is save by having faith in God, and not of yourselves, Salvation is the gift of God, and it is not a reward for your works.

You have taken Ephesians 2:5 out of context. I believe that in context, though the words are there, the meaning is different than you impose upon them.

I don't believe this can be taken literally as the "METHOD of man's salvation! But without doubt, it is while God is behaving toward man with grace, that man is saved through faith.

 

I have been unable to get an answer from those who believe they are the author of their Salvation to the question:

1.Why are some who hear the Gospel saved while others are not?

Perhaps I can get an answer to the question:

2. Who is the source of Saving Faith, man or God?

 

Wrong! That is not a Characteristic of Grace at all!

Let's see now, those whom he predestined,
just who is this? John 17!
Whom did God Call? John 17!
Whom did God Justify? John 17!
Whom did God Glorify? John 17!

Since many are saved, if grace is what saves and there is such a thing as saving grace, then it would be common among men, and faith would not be a requirement for Salvation! And that simply does not square with scripture!

 

1. Because the Gospel is not coercive, it is persuasive. Man is not coersed into believing the message. The message is given and man can either believe or not believe.

1. Faith is an exclusively Human attribute! No other creature is capable of having faith in God.
Faith is resident in man and it comes from hearing God's word. Therefore God gives ALL the reasons for man to have faith, but man must have faith because such faith is not given to man.

 

Wes:

When God created Adam he, Adam, was faultless and sinless. He and God fellowshipped face to face so much so that God Himself gave Adam the prerogative to name the animals, and to name Eve.

However, God warned Adam fairly and squarely. "On the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die".

He was not pronouncing a curse on Adam, He was not threatening punishment on Adam, He was simply telling Adam the truth: sin brings death.

Now, if faith is resident in man, and Adam is the corporal head of man, then faith necessarily produces obedience, remember James ? "Faith without works is dead". In other words, faith that hears yet does not do is no faith at all.

Back to Adam.

Satan tempts Eve. Eve eats. Eve tempts Adam. Adam eats.

Where is faith ?

 

P.S. -

Wes, you are so far outwest you've forgotten where the basics.

Go back to Genesis.

 

1 how do you know? Did Adam have the capability to sin? If not how did he get it?

2. Had Adam ever seen anything die? How would he know what dying was if he had never seen it or known of it? So where is the warning? What did Adam have to compare with?

3. Had sin brought death prior to man?

4. The human is the only species with the capability to have faith, and indeed man depends on faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Humans are the only species that have hopes, because hopes are based on preliminary knowledge of what is hoped for. Not speaking of faith in God for a moment. Man has the ability to have faith in virtually anything, health, wealth, contentment, safety, shelter, etc. It is that same capability where Faith in God resides, and it is 100% human. God has no faith to give to man, because God does not hope for anything, and there is nothing that God cannot see. Thus no need for Faith. Eternal God has no need for and therefore possesses no faith. Created man, on the other hand, is limited in what he can see, and has received promises of what lies ahead. Therefore man MUST HAVE FAITH, the substance of what is hoped for, and the evidence of what is not seen.

Faith Does not necessarily produce obedience, but it is a motivating factor in obedience.

5. Back to Adam.

"Satan tempts Eve. Eve eats. Eve tempts Adam. Adam eats."

"Where is faith ?"
Faith was not necessary for Adam at this point in the story, what had been promised that Adam hoped for? What did the serpent say to Eve that led Eve and Adam to eat of the fruit? Eat and you'll become gods. Adam did not know what a god was either.

 

You state that there was no warning by God to Adam because Adam did not know what death was. Yet you make the following argument regarding Adam's disobedience:

You say that Adam did not know what death was so he disobeyed God and then turn around and say that Adam obeyed Satan even though he did not know what a god was. Your logic is mind boggling!

You are limiting God when you argue that because God does not need or have faith He cannot give faith to man.

 

OK Genius, tell us what you think God hopes for. Tell us what God cannot see. If come up with one thing that cannot be refuted, then you may be able to shake my position. But until you can you are the one on shakey ground.

 

Wes,

You need to back off the derogatory language. You have, in this one page, called someone dense, and used "genius" in a derogatory way. Please discuss matters in a respectful way, and lift the level of conversation. I will be deleting posts that contain such comments or derogotary or disrespectful remarks. Consider yourself warned.