Sovereign in Salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

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    Who is Sovereign in Salvation, man or God?
     
  2. johnp.

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    God is Sovereign. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    I can only answer your question if I know the answer to these questions.
    Do you determine what Sovereignty God has or does God determine what His own Sovereignty is?
    It is God who determines the order of things. It is God who has already determined what His sovereign plan of Salvation is. Can man change that plan to fit his doctrine. I don't think so.
    God's plan is that we are saved by "Grace" through "Faith". In other words if you don't have any Grace with which to be saved. It's because you have no faith. Eph 2:8 and that is the truth of God's plan for Salvation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    God is, and He told us he saves ONLY those who have faith in HIM!
     
  5. johnp.

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    One for two against up till now. :cool:

    johnp.
     
  6. TC

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    Salvation is of the Lord.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi TC;
    I do not disagree;
    Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace,that we may obtain mercy, and find grace ...
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    God is sovereign in the creation of His plan of salvation. And what was His plan?

    John 3:16;John 6:36;IJohn 5:13 & John 11:25-26 and Jesus says to you--'Believeest thou this?'

    Only if you are a Biblicist and more like an Arminian.

    Regards . . .
     
  9. OldRegular

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    I can only answer your question if I know the answer to these questions.
    Do you determine what Sovereignty God has or does God determine what His own Sovereignty is?
    It is God who determines the order of things. It is God who has already determined what His sovereign plan of Salvation is. Can man change that plan to fit his doctrine. I don't think so.
    God's plan is that we are saved by "Grace" through "Faith". In other words if you don't have any Grace with which to be saved. It's because you have no faith. Eph 2:8 and that is the truth of God's plan for Salvation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]It seems to me that you are saying God is Sovereign up to a point and then man takes over. Please correct me if I am misreading you.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Same response as to ILUVLIGHT. It seems to me that you are saying God is Sovereign up to a point and then man takes over. Please correct me if I am misreading you.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    That is hard to disagree with but does it fully answer the question?
     
  12. OldRegular

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    How about Romans 8:29-31, Ephesians 1:3-6; 2:1-10.
     
  13. Scott_Bushey

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    God. If men are sovereign, God is not. If God is, men are not. It cannot be both ways, thats the point of the term.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    Can you change His plan with your own personal definitions.
    If God's plans for Salvation include the cooperation of man how does that harm His Sovereignty?.
    Calvinst always bring up the Sovereignty of God as if only they know what His Sovereignty is. This conversation always boils down to what happens first Faith or regeneration does man do anything for His Salvation. The answer is yes He does I can prove my theology with scripture but you can't prove yours with the same.
    So what say we just cutt to the chase and the first thing you can do is prove with scripture that regeneration comes first. It is we who first place our trust in Christ.

    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Here is my proof that Grace comes through Faith.

    "Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;" No faith, no Grace. Where's your proof.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Same response as to ILUVLIGHT. It seems to me that you are saying God is Sovereign up to a point and then man takes over. Please correct me if I am misreading you. </font>[/QUOTE]What we are telling you is that God indeed saves, and he told us that He saves ONLY men who have FAITH in him. Now you can interpret that as me saying that God Demands of Man the condition of FAITH in Mans Heart, and you'd be correct.

    Or,

    You can interpret that as me saying that man must meet the minimum requirement established by God for the salvation of man, and that would be FAITH in God within mans heart, and again you'd be correct.

    Or,

    You can interpret that as me saying that without man having faith in his heart for God, that God does not recogize and thus does not save the man, and you'd be correct.

    Or,

    You can interpret that as me saying, there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved, and Jesus says if we believe in Him, even on His name, that we shall be saved! And, you'd be correct!

    I could say that perhaps another dozen or two ways, but I think you get the message...There is no salvation of man without man having faith in heart for God...A THAT's a FACT JACK!
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    Yes God did know the Jews before
    And the book of Ephesians I agree with whole heartedly How ever it's your interpretation that I disagree with most likely.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Can you change His plan with your own personal definitions.
    If God's plans for Salvation include the cooperation of man how does that harm His Sovereignty?.
    Calvinst always bring up the Sovereignty of God as if only they know what His Sovereignty is. This conversation always boils down to what happens first Faith or regeneration does man do anything for His Salvation. The answer is yes He does I can prove my theology with scripture but you can't prove yours with the same.
    So what say we just cutt to the chase and the first thing you can do is prove with scripture that regeneration comes first. It is we who first place our trust in Christ.

    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Here is my proof that Grace comes through Faith.

    "Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;" No faith, no Grace. Where's your proof.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well you got a little ahead of your self, furthermore, you incorrectly interpret Ephesians 2:8.

    Ephesians 2:1-8 KJV

    1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Please note in verse 8:1 the words "hath he quickened" are in italics in the KJV which means they were added for clarity. If we read the passage without this addition we read from verses 1, 4 and 5: And you who were dead in trespasses and sins God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us hath quickened us together with Christ. The word quickened means made alive.

    We were spiritually dead and God made use spiritually alive, thet is regenerated us. Then according to verse 8 He gave us the faith to believe. The verse states: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. Now this passage states:
    1. by grace are ye saved
    2. through faith
    3. that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

    Paul is talking about grace and faith. One of these is not of yourself. Now obviously grace is not of ourself. We have no grace. Therefore, it is faith that is the gift of God.

    Regeneration precedes faith. Before regeneration occurs we are spiritually dead and unable to do anything related to our own salvation.

    The above passage from the NASB is as follows:

    1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
    2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
    4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
    7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Yes but that faith is itself the gift of God after He has made us, who were dead in sin, spiritually alive. That is regeneration which precedes faith and that is a fact WES.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    Yes God did know the Jews before
    And the book of Ephesians I agree with whole heartedly How ever it's your interpretation that I disagree with most likely.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 8:29-31 is not restricted to the Jews but about all the elect.
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Oldregular;
    Looks like you have your view and I have mine. Not the first time you ever had anyone disagree with your view is it?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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