Sovereignity of God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jan 1, 2011.

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  1. convicted1

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    I have heard so many talk of a sovereign God, and He is, but here is a little "diddy" that came across my mind and I want y'all's thoughts!!

    When God used Moses, and then Joshua, to lead His peopel Israel(the twelve tribes of Jacob, and not the nation Israel today) out of Egypt into the promised land, why did He do this? If He wanted to, He could have lifted them out of Egypt, and placed them in the promised land thisquick. However, God uses man for His glory. Moses and Joshua could not have done one thing without God's help, but God didn't need theirs. He chooses men to do the work for Him. Why am I writing this? Here's why. When God allows men to do things they know that they could not do unless God is with them, they then give thanks to Him, and He gets glory from mankind. If God would have picked up the tweleve tribes and then placed them in the promised land, where would His praise have been? When God uses mankind to do His work, and they praise Him for that which gets accomplished, they praise Him for the work that He did through them.

    Its kinda like faith healing. Not one of us in this world can lay hands on someone and then be healed by us. However, when we come to Him in a prayer of faith, if its His will, they will recover....not that we did it ourselves, but He healed them through our faith, plus His will. Our hands are like "lightning rods", there is no electricity in that rod by itself, but when struck from on high, then there's power in that rod. Our hands have that power from on high when the Spirit flows through us, to that individual. Praise His sweet name!!

    In summation:God is sovereign over the plan, but mankind, in that plan, has freewill. Look at Judas Iscariot. I believe he had every right to do what he did, or not do it. He chose to betray Jesus, and this is why Jesus picked him for one of the twelve. Someone had to do this(betray Jesus{God's sovereign plan}), and if not Judas, then someone else would have do the job. I hope this doesn't bring any confusion.

    What do y'all think??


    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  2. michael-acts17:11

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    Excellent OP. I thoroughly agree with your conclusions as stated.
     
  3. zrs6v4

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    What if nobody was willing to betray Jesus?
     
  4. Jarthur001

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  5. convicted1

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    Brother,

    I believe this is a completely impossible question. Not being snippy with you either, Brother. The reason why I say this is because it was fortold what was to happen to Him. So, someone had to betray Him.


    Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


    Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

    28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

    The prophesy of Judas as told by Peter.

    15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

    16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

    17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

    18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

    19And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

    20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.



    Psalms 109:1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;

    2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

    3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

    4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.

    5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

    6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

    7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.


    8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.


    So I do believe it was impossible for someone not to betray Him.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #5 convicted1, Jan 1, 2011
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  6. zrs6v4

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    Willis,

    My point was that God's will doesn't work around man's choice. Man's choice works after the counsel of God's will. You said, "Someone had to do this(betray Jesus{God's sovereign plan}), and if not Judas, then someone else would have do the job." man does not cause God's will, but God causes man's will. In Judas case secondary means, but for us who believe primary. God allowed Satan to take over Judas, yet protected the other 11 from Satan.

    God chose Judas' to be the betrayer. Therefore Judas' was the one. God's will doesn't hop around to whomever is willing, :). This is a deep topic so I will stop here.
     
  7. convicted1

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    I am not being snippy by asking this question, but do you have scripture to support that God CHOSE Judas to betray Jesus?? I believe that God, in His foreknowledge, saw that Judas would do this, and therefore Jesus CHOSE Judas to do the job.

    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Right here is Jesus' foreknowledge of what Judas was WILLING to do.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  8. zrs6v4

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    I agree that Jesus both knew about Judas betrayal and that Judas was willing.

    I would just differ that God's sovereign choices hinge on God knowing the future.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Here is a sincere question I ask you, to get a better "grasp" on where you are coming from. Do you believe that God foreordained/predestined Judas to betray Jesus, or that God, through His foreknwledge placed Judas there with the other eleven disciples?
     
  10. The Archangel

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    John calls Judas "the son of destruction." Destruction (Gk. apoleia), in the New Testament, refers to a state of death where one is excluded from salvation.

    Now, people might try to wrangle with the word "destruction," but when you couple this word to "son" it is clear that Judas is no follower of God and never has been. His lineage is "destruction." He bears the genetic similarity, so to speak, to his father--destruction. So, to see Judas is to see what destruction (exclusion from salvation) is.

    So, Judas was ordained to do what he did. There is no "foreknowledge" at work here (in the sense of seeing through time).

    The Archangel
     
  11. convicted1

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    Bro. Archangel,

    Here is the problem I have with your accessment. Here is the greek word you gave for perdition/destruction.


    apōleia/I] G684 Strong's

    1) destroying, utter destruction

    a) of vessels

    2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

    a) of money

    b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

    Now, your accessment is corret in this word meaning destruction, but how can you reconcile this to Judas being foreordained to do what he did?

    Here is a passage I want you to look at.


    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    In verse 12, it states to become the sons of God. They weren't the sons of God until after they believed. So I take this to be the same way, contextually(if this is even a word....LOL) as the "son of perdition". He didn't become the son of perdition/destruction until after satan took over his life. That being said, I am no greek scholar, so I might be wrong.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  12. zrs6v4

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    Judas was predestined to betray Jesus (This is not the same way God predestines His children), yet God did not cause him to do so. It wasn't an accident that Judas fell into his situation. If foreknowledge is simply God knowing then how can God control the events?

    What has to be decided is whether or not you believe God controls the future by His knowing about it or by His mysterious works that He causes all events to work together for His good purposes (including the disasters and bad things).

    As for those of perdition Jude 1:4, "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation..." Yes they make willing choices within time and space yet they are all in the sovereign hand of God being used for His purposes. Another aspect to mention is that God takes no pleasure in the ungodly and they grieve Him to the heart when they sin against Him.
     
    #12 zrs6v4, Jan 2, 2011
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  13. convicted1

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    I found this on www.scripturessay.com :

    Was Judas Iscariot predestined to be lost?
    Author: Mike Scott
    Type: TV Question



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    “Was Judas Iscariot predestined to be lost? If not how do you explain Matthew 26:25; John. 13:27-30; 17:11-12; Psalm 41:9; Acts 1:16?”

    Matthew 26:20-25
    20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
    21 As they were eating, He said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.”
    22 Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?”
    23 And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
    24 “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
    25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself.”

    During the course of the Passover supper, Christ informed the disciples that one of them would betray him. Each of them began to question the Savior, “Surely not I, Lord?”

    Then Judas asked the same question, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” The Lord responded; “You have said it yourself.” This was an affirmative answer, to the effect: “Yes, you are the one.”

    Judas’ question implied that he knew that he was the one who would betray the Lord. We know this is true because he already had bargained with the chief priests to deliver Christ unto them (Mt. 26:14-16; Mk. 14:10-11; Lk. 22:3-6).

    Therefore we conclude that the traitor’s question was insincere.

    Some would suggest that Judas was but a pawn, unable to resist the invasion of Satan into his life. That certainly is not the case, as even Judas himself conceded. He never pled: “I could not help myself; Satan made me do it!” Rather, he confessed: “I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood” (Mt. 27:4).

    So what did Jesus mean in John 13:18, and 17:12?

    John 13:18
    18 ¶ “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

    John 17:12
    12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

    The “scripture” most likely alluded to is Psalm 41:9.

    Psalm 41:9
    9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me.

    Messianic portions of the Old Testament have a primary application and a Messianic application. When David said that someone who he had trusted was going to turn against him he was talking about himself. In the Messianic application, Jesus does not say that Judas was “trusted.” The reason is that Jesus knew “from the beginning” (Jn 6:64) who was going to be faithful, and who was going to betray him. This is what Acts 1:16 means when it says:

    Acts 1:16
    16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

    Foreknowledge does not demand predetermination. God foreknew that Judas, exercising his own freewill, would betray his Son. These passages, therefore, reflect God’s foreknowledge, but not a predetermined action over which Judas had no control.

    A further illustration of this principle is seen in the fact that Christ was delivered up to death by the predetermined plan and “foreknowledge” of God (Acts 2:23), and yet the ones who were involved in the Savior’s crucifixion were held accountable for their evil deed (23b; cf. 36-38).

    You may often hear people used this form of rationalization, “I can’t help what I do; I was predestined to do it.” This attitude finds acceptance in a modern world that seeks to escape from personal responsibility. The Scriptures teach that all men will give an account on the day of Judgment for their own conduct (Rom. 14:12; 2 Cor. 5:10) - not for actions thrust upon them by God.

    I know that is only one man's opinion(very similiar to mine :) ), so some will agree with this, and some won't.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  14. zrs6v4

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    Willis thanks for the link.

    I am very familiar with that position as it is a logical position to arrive at. I think it is much more complex than that position. I also don't deny human responsibility when I say that God is in control of all things. I do believe that a large aspect of God's sovereignty is His omniscience.

    Do you believe in luck or chance?
    What causes all things to have purpose?
    Do you believe that Everything that happens fits in God's purposes?
    Do you think that God's providence is based upon all the choices humans make?
    If you do believe God's choices are based on human's choices, how is God controlling all things?

    I want to agree with you that the context of many scripture passages arent intended to go as deep as we try to make them.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion. I hope we can make it a good one.. :)... not that this topic doesnt come up all the time or anything :rolleyes:
     
    #14 zrs6v4, Jan 2, 2011
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  15. convicted1

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    You know Brother, the funny thing about this thread is that Judas wasn't what I had intended this to be about. I was using him as an example of how God is sovereign in the plan of salvation, and in this plan, man has a free will. Jesus made a statement that I think will be helpful in this discussion:

    Luke 19:29 And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,

    30 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.

    31 And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

    32 And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.

    33 And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?

    34 And they said, The Lord hath need of him.

    35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

    36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.

    37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

    38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

    39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

    40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

    I take this to mean that the prescense(sp?) of God was so strong there, that it was impossible to stop them from praising Him. They were praising Him because of His Son and how He was coming to fulfill the Law and bring in the "new and living way", the Grace Covenant. God doesn't need "puny, little, mankind" to do His work for Him, but He chooses to. Like I said in the OP, if He wanted to, He could have taken the twelve tribes out of Egypt thisquick and placed them squarely in the "promised land". But He chose to use Moses and Aaron, and then Joshua after Aaron and Moses had died. He uses mankind to do the "impossible with mankind" to show that with God, ALL things are possible. Thereby, He gets true praise from His creation, and not by predestination/foreordaining mankind. When I see something marvelous happen, I know it was not I who did it, but God through me had done this. Then I begin praising Him for it. Just like the best surgeon, if God doesn't guide his hands, and then "give the increase" and heal that patient, they die. If God heals that patient, he used the surgeon to do the "work", but He was sovereign in that surgery by guiding his hands, and then doing the healing afterwards. This is what I mean about "The Sovereignity of God". He is sovereign over THE PLAN but uses mankind in that sovereignity. :thumbs: :thumbs: AMEN????

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #15 convicted1, Jan 2, 2011
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  16. preacher4truth

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    Brother, I apologize, but your thinking doesn't come to it's logical conclusion, it is coming right to your own preconceived conclusion, i. e. that you believe man has free will. Nothing in this is logical, which is what you are doing; using your logic to prove your point. I hope you're not going to argue that Scripture did it, because you didn't use Scripture to prove a thing, again, you've used your own logic. You've approached the Scriptures to prove your own preconceived presuppositions to be correct. Why are you leaning on your understanding in doing this, and not upon who God is and His Word? This is exactly what you have done, leaned upon self. I don't say this to anger you, I say this out of concern for you.

    - Blessings
     
    #16 preacher4truth, Jan 2, 2011
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  17. quantumfaith

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  18. quantumfaith

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    Great post, Willis, Thanks for sharing. Spoken from one, like yourself, who is not a determinist. Disregard the "blowback" of you are simply "arriving by your preconceived notions" etc. God Bless
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    Philippians 2:13

    "For is is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." KJV

    :)


    "For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." NASB


    This has always been the case: That God grasps ahold of man, not vice versa. :)

    Kenneth Copeland shares your same sentiments and logic, which you in fact lean upon, that God is helpless unless we give Him access by our free will. He also cannot stand to think he is not in control and demands his rights, also. :)


    Yet, He says "...without Him we can do nothing." John 15:5

    He is in control of everything and every outcome. I give Him glory for this. In other words, I won't share in, nor agree with Copelands sentiments, which are a reflection of yours, brought to its absurd conclusion.


    Carry on.
     
    #19 preacher4truth, Jan 2, 2011
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  20. Robert Snow

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    God predestined to use Judas' free choice to betray Jesus in His plan to bring salvation to mankind.
     
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