Sovereignty of God in Salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

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    The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the sovereignty of God. By sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve, to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.

    Philippians 1:6, KJV
    6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

    Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect through regeneration by the Holy Spirit and union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statement:

    John 10:26-29, KJV
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.


    1. Who are the sheep of Jesus Christ of whom He says? My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. The Sheep of Jesus Christ are those chosen by God the Father unto Salvation before the foundations of the world as shown in Ephesians 1:3-6

    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    2. Who are those of whom He says: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep?. These are those whom, in His Sovereign Grace, God has passed over. These are the ones who remain under the wrath of God

    3. What is the promise of God the Son to those who are His Sheep? It is fourfold:
    a. I give unto them eternal life.
    b. They shall never perish.
    c. No man shall pluck them out of my hand.
    d. No man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    The Apostle Paul sums up very succinctly in Romans 8:29-30 the Sovereignty of God in Salvation: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    This thread is about the Sovereignty of God in Salvation, not about Calvinism.
     
  3. whatever

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    Not for long, I bet.

    Great post by the way.
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    This is not a C vs A response. It is a Christian only response regarding the wrong use of a specific scripture to make an unsupportable point.
    Ephesians 1:3-12 DOES NOT support your contention regarding Jesus sheep unless you are willing to limit the sheep to the Apostles.
    Why do you stop at verse 6? The Context of what Paul is saying here includes verses up through 12. No, you don't need to respond with why you stop at verse 6, we all know it is because verse 12 absolutely refutes your contention as stated above.
    Those spoken of in Ephesians 1:5 are the same as those spoken of in Eph 1:12.
    No one alive today was chosen to be the people who would put their hopes in the Christ before he came, nor were any of the Ephesians! There are not many who fit this description, and they are the Apostles of Christ Jesus. A fact that is substantiated in John 17, And in John 1:40-41 which provides evidence of those who did put their hopes in Christ before he came.
    [/quote]A clear indication that there were those who had hopes of "seeing the promised messiah" or "Christ" as Messiah is translated. They had those hopes for some time in anticipation of the advent of the Christ.
    Who is willing to say that those whom the Father gave to Jesus are anyone but the Apostles?
     
  5. whatever

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    I am, for one.
     
  6. 4His_glory

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    Here here!

    Wes your Apostle arugment just dosen't fly around here. It has been refuted more than once.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    Ephesians 1:3-6
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



    Romans 8:9,14-17
    9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
    ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [KJV]
    11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NKJV]
    11. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
    12. that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NAS95]
    11. also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
    12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NASB]
    11. also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
    12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NIV]
    11. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NRSV]
    11. In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will,
    12. so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [Green's Literal]
    11. in whom we also have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His own will,
    12. for us to be to the praise of His glory, the ones who had previously trusted in Christ;


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [NLT]
    11. Furthermore, because of Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us from the beginning, and all things happen just as he decided long ago.
    12. God’s purpose was that we who were the first to trust in Christ should praise our glorious God.


    Ephesians 1:11, 12 [ESV]
    11. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
    12. so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.


    I don't know what translation of Ephesians 1:3-12 Wes is using but verses 11 and 12 sure don't look like any of those posted above from the translations that are widely accepted.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    OldRegular, I have a partial list of the translations at my disposal too!

    Clearly, the Ephesians are not included in those who first hoped in the Christ, and NEITHER ARE WE!

    Can you acknowledge that?
     
  10. rc

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  11. yeshua4me2

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    God was certianly Sovereign in my salvation, i was running away from anything righteous (i was a drugdealer). My eyes were opened up, i did not even know they were closed. what i saw horrified me, i knew that i was GUILTY before the law, for i did not eve know what sin was before i read the law. wow was i a sinner, but (i thought to myself) is this true, can this be true. So i decided to look for myself. i read hundreds of books about the bible (after i read it for the first time, 18 hours what a read) and i discovered that i really did not know a thing, and everything i thought i knew was a lie (no aliens, no other planets with life). my world was upside-down, the Law was clear i was guilty, and the more i studied the more guilty i became, Then all of a sudden the Gospel made sense to me, I could not believe I had not seen salvation before, when it was right before my eyes. my guilt overcame me and i confessed and repented, i then trusted in Jesus' death and atonement on the cross as the payment for my guilt (sins). i did not imediatly feel free though.....this bothered me. i then discovered sactification (yes), and this takes time. my Pastor describes it this way, the knowledge of your own sinfulness is like a light, if God showed you all the sin He planned on removing from you life you would be destroyed by the "light of that knowledge"....years later i cantell you he was right. for me there was only the lighted path for me to take, when the light shined i could no longer see the other path.


    P.S. whoever said being a christan was easy was never a drugdealer, cuz it's hard to be a christian.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Yeshua4me2,
    I have nothing against the statement that God is sovereign in salvation, for without God there would be no salvation and no reason for salvation. So, like you my salvation is entirely an act of Sovereign God.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Now that WesOutwest has admitted to the Sovereignty of God in Salvation perhaps we can now discuss the initial action on the part of God in His Sovereign purpose, Election of some unto Salvation in Jesus Christ.

    God in His omniscience foreknew that Adam and Eve would choose evil, choose sin and death rather than life and righteous obedience, thereby taking upon themselves the sin nature, becoming slaves to sin, and severing their fellowship with God. Unfortunately, through the rebellion of Adam all successive generations of mankind have been heirs to a nature in bondage to sin, also alienated from God and, therefore, subject to the wrath of God.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Foreseeing the disobedience of Adam and Eve and the fall of mankind, God the Father, before the foundation of the world, foreknew and chose, out of the mass of humanity, a people to be His own [Ephesians 1:4], thus fulfilling His role in the Covenant of Grace.

    Scripture and theologians frequently use the term election to indicate the sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.

    1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.

    Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
    6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
    7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:


    Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.

    Romans 9:6,7, KJV
    6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


    2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.

    God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be Apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.


    3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.

    Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the true believers.

    The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



    What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world? We look again at the statement He chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ] that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    “All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”

    Please note in Ephesians 1:6 above that it is God who has made us accepted in the beloved. It is not anything that we do that makes us so accepted.

    We look now at the Scriptural basis for the above statements of the doctrine of election to salvation. The Scriptural basis for election follows the method presented by John Dagg, page 309ff:

    A. God has a people that He has elected or chosen to salvation.

    1 Peter 2:9, KJV
    9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    2 Thessalonians 2:13, KJV
    13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Acts 13:48, KJV
    48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    B. Election is by the sovereign grace of God.

    Romans 9:15,16, KJV
    15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    C. Election is not of works.

    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    D. The election of grace is from eternity.

    Ephesians 1:4, KJV
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    2 Timothy 1:9, KJV
    9. Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Titus 1:2, KJV
    2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    E. Election is not on the basis of foreseen faith.

    Ephesians 1:4, KJV
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Ephesians 2:8-10, KJV
    8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    F. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God.

    1 Peter 1:2, KJV
    2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    From the above Scripture we see that election is indeed according to the sovereign grace and purpose of God. These Scripture show the necessity of the sovereignty of God’s grace in salvation. Without election no one would be saved. The Second London Confession of Faith of 1689 states concerning the natural state of man [Lumpkin, page 264]:

    “Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as a natural man, being altogether adverse from good, and dead in sin is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.”

    Dagg [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

    “Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

    Herein has been briefly described the Doctrine of Election, a most precious doctrine that magnifies the Sovereign Grace of God, a doctrine that was once the bedrock of Baptist beliefs but in recent years has come into disrepute. God’s purpose in Election is summarized once again by referring to the passage from Romans:.

    Romans 8:28-30, KJV
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Wes Outwest has NEVER given you reason to doubt his belief in Sovereign God, so knock off the pettyness!
     
  15. johnp.

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    Hello Wes.
    Is that you saying that Wes or are you working in shifts with another?
    You have not claimed God's Sovereignty in anything as you believe man has the final sovereign choice on whether to accept His rule or not.
    Man is sovereign to you as sovereignty resides in choice.
    You claim the ability to choose or not to go to Christ that makes you sovereign o great one. :cool:
    And neither has any Calvinist but a Calvinist means what he says, you don't. Like with other words you don't like you twist this into something that it just cannot be. Either God is Sovereign or He is not. Either He calls the shots or He don't.
    Now there are possibly Calvinists that would say you are wrong but I agree with this. Without God there would be no need for salvation is laying the blame where we are told to lay it! :cool: For who resists His will?

    john.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    posted May 16, 2005 09:11 PM by WES Outwest on The Elect, Need a clear definition of.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Sovereign God told us, I have placed before you Life and Death, choose life. He does not do the choosing for us, He makes us decide! That is sovereignty!
    The rules belong to Sovereign God. We are subject to Sovereign God, he gave us the choice.

    The Calvinist believes that God elects him to salvation and that by irresistible grace, he has no choice but to believe. Therefore, in light of scripture the Calvinist is wrong! God is sovereign whether or not the Calvinist recognizes the possibilities under God's sovereignty!

    Now there are possibly Calvinist's that would say you are wrong but I agree with this. Without God there would be no need for salvation is laying the blame where we are told to lay it! [Cool] For who resists His will?</font>[/QUOTE]Once again you have taken a clear statement and twisted it in your devilish manner to make my statement mean what I did not say. Without God there would be no creation, without creation there would be no man, without man there would be no sin in the world, without sin there would be no reason for salvation! God is completely and Totally Sovereign! Sovereign God gives man the choice of life or death!
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    </font>[/QUOTE]Great Post Wes Outwest, it speaks the truth!
     
  19. johnp.

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    Hello Wes.
    No point going there with you.
    No that is wesspeak for not sovereign. What you mean 'He makes us decide'? Do you mean He allows? And permits? You are sounding more and more Calvinist man. :cool: In the permitting is the loss of Sovereingnty and God is no longer God because God is Sovereign.
    That means that everything you believe you believe because God causes you to believe what you believe. What you say is what He causes you to say. That is Sovereignty.
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    john.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    NO, I am saying that God makes us choose. And we choose either actively or passively.

    If actively, we gain faith in HIM through his word, and our name is written in the book of life.

    If passively, we ignore him and take the consequences of not having our name written in the book of life.

    Either way, the choice given us by Sovereign God is life or death. Obedience to God is choosing life.
     

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