Sovereignty vs. Chance?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Tim, Jul 11, 2003.

  1. Tim

    Tim
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    Does God exercise His sovereignty in all games of chance? In other words, if I roll "snake eyes" on the dice (without gambling, mind you!)--did God make it happen? Or is it merely His laws of probability working?

    P.S. Both Calvinists and Arminians may respond.
     
  2. T.U.L.I.P.

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    Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


    Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

    I believe that right down to how you throw the dice in Monopoly, God is in control. I will elaborate and add more scripture as I have time.
     
  3. Me2

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    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    everything that is happening now, has already happened before God, in spirit form

    before the foundation of the world.

    think about jesus and his life..everything that was recorded in Gods bible to mankind existed before the foundation of the world and when jesus came to mankind in our linear time.

    his life was fully pre-scripted out,

    what to say and do...word for word.

    so it is as our own life..

    all of our successes and failures.
    our lives are in Gods hands, even if we dont realize it.

    so as some would say that "The Lords bride has been called and is being sanctified now".

    it is that his bride is realizing this now in its physical manifestation.

    as it has already occurred in the spirit world before this very physical world was ever created.

    God doesnt make things happen now...

    it has already happened and we're simply living out in this physical form, from an unknown script.

    but its only unknown, to us...
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    Let us say that God exercized his sovereignty in all things. If we define sovereignty as causing and authoring all things, then he does indeed make it happen. However, we must also conclude that God also authored all the sin in the world, which is most certainly not the case.

    So, we must either come to a different understanding about how often (or when) God exercizes sovereignty, or we come to a different definition of "sovereignty."
     
  5. Me2

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    hasnt God already foreseen our lives and MADE appropriate choices concerning our final outcome?
    (IN THIS AGE)

    and are we not discovering what paths WERE chosen for us already from before time began?

    Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


    these "words" existed within Jesus or the Son in eternity past.

    Gods will for man, was within Jesus in eternity past, within the Son.

    and God does not lie or change.

    God chose who would be the children of mercy and the children of wrath in eternity past.

    we as mankind forget that God creates first in the spirit and that the physical is only a "shadow or reflection" of that initial spiritual manifestation.

    so how about tomorrows lottery numbers lord ?

    wether I asked for the numbers or not in this life...
    my "path" would have lead me to receive them because my physical life is a reflection of what already occured in its initial spiritual manifestation.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
    Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

    The "bride" are the Sons of God. Their spirits received glory with their husband, their Lord before the foundation of this world.
    the moment of their resurrection..by faith.

    and now in this physical life, is an uncovering of those spirits. the firstfruits.

    again, If I win a lottery..it already happened.

    just as the spiritual manifestation of the Sons of God.and it all happened before the foundation of the world came into its physical manifestation.
     
  6. Peter101

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    >>>>>Does God exercise His sovereignty in all games of chance? In other words, if I roll "snake eyes" on the dice (without gambling, mind you!)--did God make it happen? Or is it merely His laws of probability working?<<<<<<

    The laws of probability are well understood and they work. The results are indistinguishable from results where there is no divine intervention, therefore the most likely conclusion is that things happen without any intervention from God.
     
  7. Deacon

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    Well Pete, I think you missed the point. If God is truely sovereign then there is no such thing as chance.

    R.C. Sproul wrote an neat little book about this called, "Not a Chance, The Myth of Chance in Modern Science and Cosmology" Baker Books, 1994.

    You are in good company with your thinking, even Albert Einstein had thoughts about this. His statement was "God doesn't play dice"

    Rob
     
  8. ColoradoFB

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    Wasn't the rest of this quote "...but he is very fond of dominoes."? :D

    Seriously though, I don't believe that God cares one iota about things like the outcome of a dice roll. However, if he established the laws of physics, you could say these very attributes of nature he created determine the outcome. Things such as the angle and velocity at which the dice were released from the hand, their orientation upon release, etc.
     
  9. Artimaeus

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    1. God CAUSES everything.
    2. God doesn't CAUSE everything.

    The only two options. One statement is true and the other one isn't. #1 is 100% and #2 is anything less.
     
  10. ScottEmerson

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    So, does God CAUSE sin? Does he CAUSE murder, homosexuality, lust, incest, rape, persecution, and so on?
     
  11. HankD

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    If we say that God ALLOWS everything, have we violated the teaching of the Sovereignty of God?

    "Sovereignty of God" One of the phrases like "The Trinity", not found in the Bible BTW.

    But yes, I adhere to both teachings (Sovereignty and Trinity - although some may not like my choice of words in the definition of His Sovereignty).

    I am just curious to know from the Calvinists if you believe that "ALLOW" is an insufficient word in the definition of The "Sovereignty" of God.

    Can you point to a Scripture(s) not already mentioned?

    Here is mine:

    Proverbs 3:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


    HankD
     
  12. BrianT

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    One sticking point I have with God controlling the dice, and ultimately with Calvinism in general, is this: if God allows no chance, and is sovereign to the point that he ultimately micromanages everything (which he must, if I understand Calvinism correctly, because knowing and predestining the future allows for no deviation from his will), then he even is in control of every atom in each of our brains, how the cells have formed and how and when each neuron fires and how and when chemicals are released, etc. In other words, if God is in control of the dice, God is in control of our very thoughts, emotions, choices - we cannot have a thought he is not in control of, we cannot have an emotion he is not in control of, we cannot make a choice he is not in control of.

    Humans have started making devices such as these. They are called robots, having no real choice or thoughts or control of their own, only having the illusion of them.
     
  13. dianetavegia

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    BrianT! I cannot BELIEVE this! I agree with you!

    Diane [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. HankD

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    This is a request out of sincerity, if we have no real "choice" how is it explained that human beings (according to the Scripture, many of them) have the power of choice?

    The word "choose" in both these passages is the same word.

    Deuteronomy 17:15
    15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

    Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    If we say that those who are able to "choose" are thosed who are saved, I believe that begs the question.

    If all things are possible with God then He can give the power of choice to whomever.

    Or is human "choice" some kind of illusion and the Word of God (and God Himself therefore) is condescending to us in that He cannot truly give to us the power of choice which He alones has?

    HankD
     
  15. Hardsheller

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    [​IMG] Same old stereotypes. Same old Strawmen. Same old misunderstanding. Are you guys programmed somewhere?

    BTW - I made a choice to respond to you. [​IMG]
     
  16. BrianT

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    [​IMG] I'll have to mark my calendar. [​IMG] See, I'm not all bad. ;)
     
  17. dianetavegia

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    LOL... I also agree with you on the diversity thread! NEAT~ :D

    Diane
     
  18. BrianT

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    I'm sorry if this seems like a strawman to you. I've never seen it adquately answered, or explained *why* it's a misrepresentation of Calvinism (or at least the logical conclusion Calvinism leads to).

    Did you really? How? Didn't God predestine it, and control all previous events that led up to your posting (including your past experiences, formation of your brain and thought processes, etc.) so that you had no option but to respond, fulfilling what was predetermined and ultimately unavoidable?
     
  19. Sola-Scriptura

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    Deuteronomy 29:29
    "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever,

    Let's not let our sinful minds try to scale the mountain of God's knowledge. It's fun to ponder and surmise, but ultimately we must lower our curious hearts and submit to what is revealed in scripture.
    One thing to remember here is that God ordains the end, but also ordains the means to those ends. Why do we pray? Because God has commanded us to and ordained that those prayers are a part of the sovereign means to the end He desires. Why do we preach the Gospel? Because He has ordained the foolishness of preaching to be the means of bringing His truth to the elect. Does God forbid murder? Yes. Did He "allow" Christ to be killed, or dermine beforehand that He would be murdered?

    Acts 4:27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people[5] of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
     
  20. HankD

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    So is "choose you this day whom you will serve" a request (choice) or a command (to fullfill predestination)?

    HankD (who has chosen to exercise his apparent free will and "sinfully scale the mountain of God's knowledge").

    HankD
     

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