Sovereignty???

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MB, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. MB

    MB
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    The Sovereignty of God as described by Calvinist as complete control over every single thing under the sun simply goes to far. If God were such a Sovereignty, man would not be allowed the free will to sin. This must be why Calvinist have tried so hard to make God the author of sin. That way God retains His sovereignty and control over who sins and who doesn’t Which ultimately makes God out to be both good and evil.

    Is what I've read lately the fulfillment of prophecy? When men call good evil and evil good. Where men give credit to sin and Satan for God's glory.
    God forbid!
    MB
     
  2. Osage Bluestem

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    God is the author of sin, that doesn't make him a sinner. Read the story of David's census in 2 Samuel 24 and in 1 Chronicles 21. It will give you good insite. Also read Genesis 50:20, and Acts 4:27-28.

    Romans 8 is clear that all things work for the good of God's people. And Romans 9 is clear on that as well.
     
  3. Winman

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    It is difficult to understand how anyone could truly be repentant for their sins if they believe God decreed they should sin. What is there to be sorry for? You are simply doing what God wanted you to do. How can that be wrong?
     
  4. Amy.G

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    Well at least you're willing (pun intended) to come right out and say it.
     
  5. Osage Bluestem

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    Guys come on. Read the scriptures I posted above. Wow just Genesis 50:20 at least.
     
  6. MB

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    I know you won't believe me but Evil is not sin although sin is evil. How can that be?. Evil in the OT is also calamity which has nothing to do with sin. The flood was evil because it was a calamity.
    MB
     
  7. Winman

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    2 Samuel 24 says God was angry against Israel and so moved David against them. So this census was a judgment against Israel for their sins.

    1 Chr 21 says Satan provoked David.

    Now, this story is similar to Jonah, in that God allowed Satan to act to bring about a desired purpose. With Jonah, God allowed Satan to afflict Jonah to prove his love of God, Satan had claimed that Jonah was only faithful because he was blessed of God.

    In this story, God is angry at Israel, and so allows Satan to provoke David to bring a judgment against the people.

    In Gen 50:20, God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery. He did not cause their hatred toward their brother, but used it to take Joseph down to Egypt where God knew Joseph would later deliver his people.

    And in Acts, Peter is explaining that God allowed Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles and Israel to crucify Jesus to bring about his intended purpose. But it does not say he caused them to hate Jesus or that he commanded them to crucify Jesus.

    The scriptures cannot contradict themselves. James 1:13 says that God does not tempt ANY man, but EVERY man is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust.

    You might claim God tempted Adam and Eve by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil within easy reach. Is that tempting them? No, because God clearly warned them that they would die if they ate of this tree.

    But God did allow them choice. Choice is a good thing, because choice proves whether someone sincerely loves God. If you love God you will obey him.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    God could have put a high fence around the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and then Adam and Eve could not have sinned, correct? But neither could they prove they loved God by being obediant to him.

    Right now, you have a choice, you can prove to Jesus you love him by obeying his commandments, or you can choose to prove you do not love him by being disobediant. But if you did not have choice you could prove neither.

    God is love. Love requires choice. God has to allow us some degree of freedom. He has to allow us to make our own choices. If he did not, he would not be loving toward us in that all men desire freedom, but also, we could not prove our love to him.

    So, God had to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in easy reach, otherwise there was no trust of them, and Adam and Eve could not prove their love by being obediant.

    All parents of teenagers understand this. All parents are quite aware of how they acted at that age. Most of us did things we know our parents did not approve of. Nevertheless, we have to let go and allow our teens a degree of freedom. We have to take that chance that they will either go out and do those good things we taught them, or do those things that we do not approve of. We must allow them this freedom to prove we trust them, but we must also allow them this freedom to prove they love us. All parents of teens understand this.
     
    #7 Winman, Mar 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2011
  8. Osage Bluestem

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    All that love Christ are elect and are regenerate. There are many passages in the bible that explain what the regenerate person in like.

    Regarding the question of evil here is a real nice post that a guy wrote on CARM. I love it he did well: http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthre...-create-evil&p=1421371&viewfull=1#post1421371

    I am also a part of that thread as well if you notice. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. psalms109:31

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    Satan

    I believe when David sees the people he truely believed that the number of his people was like the sands of the seashore that the promise was fulfilled through him. His pride satan, remember Jesus called Peter Satan, told him to number the people and then God also told Him to count the people. When they came back with a number that he didn't expect, it humbled him
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Mar 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2011
  10. Winman

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    Well, the first thing I noted was that he misquoted scripture. He said;

    The way he quoted this verse makes it to say that God commanded David to go and number Israel and Judah. But what does the verse really say?

    2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

    The scriptures DO NOT say that God told David to go number Israel and Judah, it was David who made this statement. So this fellow misquotes scripture to give a skewed interpretation that supports Calvinism. I would not listen to anything this fellow says for this reason alone.

    This also proves that the KJB and the MVs do not teach the same doctrine as many claim. It seems the MVs were written with a bias to support Reformed doctrine.

    The rest of his argument is classic Reformed argument I have seen a hundred times.

    As I have said several times, James 1:13 teaches that God never tempts ANY man with evil. This verse is very direct and easy to understand. You cannot take verses that are difficult to overthrow scripture that is plain.
     
  11. Osage Bluestem

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    He quoted from the ESV:

    2 Samuel 24:1 ESV
    24:1 Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

    http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Samuel+24:1

    The ESV is a very respected translation used as the standard by many Churches.
     
  12. Amy.G

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    It may be but it has God saying something when it was David that said it.


    I also read Gen 5:20 and fail to see your point. Joseph's brothers did the evil but God used it for Joseph's good. This is one the awesome things about God. He gives free will but at the same time makes things work according to His plan.
     
  13. ReformedBaptist

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    I think this is the first time I have seen anyone make the claim that God is the author of sin. Wow.

    To the people on this thread:

    That is the historic calvinist position. This is from Chapter 3 of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. You will find what is written in it identical to the Westminster Confession. http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc03.html

    So, if you are going to represent historic Calvinism, then please do so accurately. Or, if you are represent some version of theology that places God as the author of sin, then represent that.

    Also, if your going attack Calvinism, or refute it, at least represent it for what it is. Use the Calvinist confessions as representitive.

    Thanks.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    I have noticed that many Calvinists on this board prefer the ESV. R.C. Sproul used it for his study bible. Now John MacArthur has published his study bible in the ESV. It has a reformed slant.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    From the 1689...

     
  16. Winman

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    I have noted it is very popular with the Reformed. And 2 Sam 24:1 is evidence why. It clearly gives a very different meaning than the KJB that leans toward Reformed theology. What a shock!

    Of course, this interpretation was not used, even by Calvinists until 1881.

    Even Gill does not agree with you.

    Gill agrees with me, that Satan is the one who provoked David, the Lord only allowing it.

    Let's see what Coffman wrote.

    Coffman agrees with me.

    Let's see what Henry wrote.


    Matthew Henry agrees with me.

    I could show you more, and they all say the same. It was Satan that provoked David to sin, God only allowing it.

    Of course, you will never get that from reading the ESV.
     
  17. Winman

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    Oh yeah. You hear all these claims that there is no difference between the KJB and the MVs. But once you start debates like this you will find the MVs have a very strong Reformed bias.

    Just an accident I guess. :tongue3:
     
  18. ReformedBaptist

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    And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. KJV

    Amy, I checked a few translations out there. They all translate basically the same way. The NKJV captializes "he" to show that it is God that is being referred to.

    Did I miss something? They all say the Lord incited David.
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    2 Sam 24:1
    And againe the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and hee mooued Dauid against them, to say, Goe, number Israel and Iudah. (1611 KJV)

    What am I missing?
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Yes I agree with that and I'm not talking who incited David.
    The ESV states it this way:
    Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

    According to the structure God is "saying" go......



    NKJV
    Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

    Here David is saying "go, number Israel".



    I'm not trying to get into a version debate though. However the ESV and the NKJV read differently.
     

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