Speaking in Tongues Volume 4...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by D28guy, Jan 12, 2006.

  1. D28guy

    D28guy
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    And off we go...

    I'll start V4 by copying over my last post from V3...

    It staggers the mind a bit, doesnt it?

    And it seems to be fueled by something that I would almost describe as a hatred for that particular gift of the Holy Spirit, or at least those gifted with it.

    It sort of reminds me of how the legalistic pharisees responded to Christ so much of the time. He simply went about doing good, and yet those ones were so often "gnashing their teeth" and "mocking" and trying to "trick Him up" and "reviling" Him, etc etc etc.

    I've noticed...and I have been born again for 23 years now...that in Charismatic and Pentecostal fellowships these dear people are just about the sweetest most loving and "fruitful" born again people you would ever want to meet. There seems to be an openess and genuineness to the love and fellowship that is very unique. I believe its nothing less than the sweet anointing of the Holy Spirit in those place, where the Holy Spirit is welcomed in His fullness.

    And yet...these dear people are mocked, ridiculed, slandered, and even condemned sometimes.

    (and everything they are mocked for is backed up with reams of scripture...taken in context and "rightly divided.")

    I praise God for the Baptists and Southern Baptists. I really do. There is so much that they give to the body of Christ, and I have so much in common with them. But one of these days God is going to blow a refreshing and life giving new "Wind" into some of these fellowships, and my oh my are some people going to be suprised by what happens to them!

    (It'll be a very blessed surprise!) [​IMG]

    In~His~Grace~

    Mike</font>[/QUOTE]
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    In the early chapters of Hebrews God killed all the complaining Israelites because of their immediate distress in the wilderness. The Lord said they will not enter the rest. Some think it means the 'rest' of entering Heaven, while I believe the 'rest' was the Promised Land.

    How can Christians be at rest in their souls when they speak against the Holy Spirit with His manifested gifts in various churches--seen and experienced by millions of believers in Jesus Christ?
     
  3. DHK

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    There are "sweet dear loving" among Islam, and almost every other religion also. Don't have the narrow mindset that such people are only found among born again Christians. It is my personal belief that "Mother Theresa," because of her aberrant theology was not saved. I hope I am wrong. But that being the case, most Christians I meet don't begin to match up to her "sweet loving spirit; her dedication, her good works, etc." But sweetness of spirit and good works don't save. Don't get sucked in. We don't base our theology on experience but rather on the Word of God.
    Give credible evidence that the general phenomena of the Charismatic phenomena of today is what was happening in the Bible. It is not. In the Bible the spoke in different languages. They are listed in Acts 2. How clear can it be. They spoke in other tongues (different languages). That miracle never changed from Acts 2 to 1Cor.14. They spoke in different languages, different foreign languages that could be interpreted back into Greek or Hebrew, as the situation warranted. Does that happen today? No, of course not. Gibberish is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is, at the best, a psychological emotional high; at the worst it could be demon possession. If it is of the spirit it is not the Holy Spirit, but another spirit.
    It has not been demonstrated that this ability to speak gibberish has any relevance to the Biblical gift of speaking in other languages, which of course has now ceased.
    DHK
     
  4. DHK

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    Who is complainig here? The oned' complaining are pro-tongues like yourself, that people like myself would dare to point out theological error in the heresy of speaking in tongues. It is not a Biblical gift. It is not even speaking in tongues or languages, but rather gibberish or non-sense syllables strung together that make no sense at all to either God or man.

    How can one speak against the Holy Spirit when that which is spoken is not of God, and is sometimes straight from the pit of Hell. To point out error is not to speak against the Holy Spirit but rather to speak out for God.

    Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    DHK
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    DHK,

    You said, 'There are "sweet dear loving" among Islam, and almost every other religion also. Don't have the narrow mindset that such people are only found among born again Christians. It is my personal belief that "Mother Theresa," because of her aberrant theology was not saved. I hope I am wrong. But that being the case, most Christians I meet don't begin to match up to her "sweet loving spirit; her dedication, her good works, etc." But sweetness of spirit and good works don't save. Don't get sucked in. We don't base our theology on experience but rather on the Word of God.
    Give credible evidence that the general phenomena of the Charismatic phenomena of today is what was happening in the Bible. It is not. In the Bible the spoke in different languages. They are listed in Acts 2. How clear can it be. They spoke in other tongues (different languages). That miracle never changed from Acts 2 to 1Cor.14. They spoke in different languages, different foreign languages that could be interpreted back into Greek or Hebrew, as the situation warranted. Does that happen today? No, of course not. Gibberish is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is, at the best, a psychological emotional high; at the worst it could be demon possession. If it is of the spirit it is not the Holy Spirit, but another spirit.
    It has not been demonstrated that this ability to speak gibberish has any relevance to the Biblical gift of speaking in other languages, which of course has now ceased.'

    .

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  6. DHK

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    Since all commentaries don't agree it is obvious that all commentaries aren't right. Lay your commentaries down and look at the Scriptures with me, and if necessary we will consult the Greek.
    No one spoke in an ecstatic language! This is error to the nth degree. There is no Biblical evidence in the Bible anywhere. It is all in your imagination. If you have Biblcal evidence show it. Just stating it to be so doesn't make it true. Take a look at the main event of Acts chapter two: "Speaking in languages on the Day of Pentecost."

    Acts 2:2-4 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Acts 2:4 They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak. (WEB)
    --You will find that most other translations translate "tongues" as languages, as does the WEB, in this case. That is what it means--languages--real actual foreign languages, just as most Bibles translate it.

    Now using this one verse alone, Ray, tell me its meaning, and how you derive the meaning. If it means anything else but actual foreign languages where do you get that meaning from?
    The Greek word is "glossa" It has no other meaning but an actual real language.

    Explain this passage to me Ray:

    1 Corinthians 12:1-3 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    What was happening here Ray? What is your interpretation? I hope it makes sense.

    Isn't it odd you should leave out the first three verses? :rolleyes:
    He also never, never says "gifts of gibberish."

    But every Chatismatic thinks they should. That in itself tells you they have a wrong theology.
    Also it speaks of a Biblical gift--the gift of languages, as is shown here:

    1 Corinthians 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with various languages? Do all interpret?
    --But the Charismatics don't have that. They practice the psychological "ability" to speak in gibberish.
    Gibberish is not a gift. The gift of speaking in foreign languages was the Biblical gift of tongues. But that ended at the end of the first century.
    This verse is greatly misunderstood. Perhaps if I quote it from the ASV it will make a bit more sense:

    1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
    --In other words he is saying that it is okay with me if you have the ability to speak in other languages and use it according to the restrictions that I have set down for you. That is ok with me. But it is much better for your benefit that you prophecy. It is a much more valuable and profitable gift. With prophesying everyone understands and is edified. The same is not so with speaking in a foreign language. There is absolutely nothing said here about anything ecstatic.
    Okay.
    That is absurd! Why would a "worshiper not understand himself. I was driving someone home once. He was a youg man. I was quite a bit younger but still a college graduate and involved in Christian education at that time. When I began to approach this man's house (who was not saved, and not even graduated from high school), he began to speak about mathematical equations, trigonemtry, algebra, quantum physics, etc. He spoke in English, but of those things that he had no prior knowledge of. Where did that knowledge come from? He had been dabbling in the occult. He was demon-possessed. Now, that man was speaking of things he understood not, but he was under another power--a denomic power. Are you suggesting that all tongues-speakers are under denomic power. It sounds like it!! Of course I could almost agree with that.

    The command of Paul is to always have control of your mind.:
    Study to show yourselves approved unto God.
    "Think on these things."
    "Meditate on them day and night"
    "Pray without ceasing."
    2 Corinthians 10:5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;
    --Do you bring every thought into captivity? every thought to the obedience of Jesus Christ?
    Do you have complete control of your mind.
    Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus.
    A Christian always must have full control of his mind (unless he is sleeping).

    Yes he did. He was more spiritual. The Corinthians who so much wanted the gift was the most carnal church mentioned in the Bible. Paul needed the gift more than any other of them because of his missionary journeys. They took him to nations far and wide where there would have been a need to speak in other foreign languages.

    Verse 22 goes with verse 21. Tongues was a sign to the unbelieving Jew, not just any unbeliever. That is why it ended in the first century. Those that crucifed the Lord died in that generation.

    It wasn't a phenomena; it was a gift. Today it is a phenomena that started in the 20th century and before that time was unknown to mankind except in cults and false religions. Gibberish is a mark of a false religion, and a work of Satan.

    He wrote that to the church at Corinth while the gift of other languages was still in operation. Since the gift is not operational today, it has no relevance to us either. Neither does cloven tongues of fire over people's heads when the pretend to speak in tongues either.
    DHK
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    DHK,

    You said, 'Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'

    .

    You said, 'Neither does cloven tongues of fire over people's heads when the pretend to speak in tongues either.'

    .
     
  8. Baptist in Richmond

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    :eek:
    Wow.......
     
  9. Hope of Glory

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    Actually, the "rest" is a type of entering into the Kingdom, based upon the land flowing with milk and honey. The "promised land" is something they were already in when they left Egypt. Genesis 15:18 tells us, "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

    They began in the land of promise, were baptized in the Red Sea, and their children (except for Joshua and Caleb) were able to enter into the Kingom or the "rest".

    And we can be at rest in our souls for speaking truth.
     
  10. Rev. Lowery

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    DHK on this Brother I agree with you. I have seen my sister "slain in the spirit" and all manner of things and later she said she felt compelled to do it so she wouldn't fell left out. I never felt right at a service of this nature and I know I am saved and I know the Holy Ghost power and I have never felt the spirit at a service where these things take place.
     
  11. D28guy

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    DHK.

    But they dont proclaim and lift up the Lord Jesus Christ as our only hope for salvation.

    I was saying that among born again people, I see the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit in abundance among Charismatics and Pentecostals. And many times more abundantly than in other groups I frequent.

    And along with that, we find the biblically identified gifts of the Spirit...all of them...in evidence.

    I agree.

    I've never spent any time with her, I dont know.

    I never said they did.

    Thats my whole point!

    The scriptures identify certain gifts of the Spirit. They are individually identified and described. In the Charismatic and Pentecostal meetings we see them in evidence.

    In more "traditional" churchs, people go to great and convoluted lengths to explain them away.

    Its been done more times than I can count, by myself and many others, on these 3+ volumes of this topic.

    No kidding. When have you heard me or anyone else advocate the "gift of speaking in gibberish"

    We advocate the gift of speaking in tongues.

    Sometimes tongues of unlearned earthly foreign languages...as described in the scriptures.

    Sometimes tongues of an unlearned heavenly foreign language, as described in the scriptures...

    "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, if I have not love, I have become sounding brass or clanging cymal"

    "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries".

    The word of God...

    "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, if I have not love, I have become sounding brass or clanging cymal"

    "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries".

    The word of God...

    "And they we all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

    I cant recall anyone on these boards advocating speaking by means of the gift of "speaking in gibberish".

    We are advocating the gift of tongues as described in Gods scriptures.

    Posted in spite of the fact that millions speak in the biblical gift of tongues every day.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  12. DHK

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  13. atestring

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    I agree that gibberish is not a spiritul gift.
    There is no mention of giberish in the Bible.
    After many challenges on this boardnobody has ever prvedthat there is a greek word for gibberish.
    I do not believe that Charismatics speak gibberish.
    THere are over 3500 languages in this world and "tyndale translators" are finding more languages as they translate the Bible.
    If I can find a person that actually speaks over 3500 languages and will say that speaking in tongues is gibberish then we will talk.
    I will even talk to a person that is fluent in 20 languages.
     
  14. Briguy

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    Mike, you bring up "speaking mysteries unto God" as a positive thing. Think that idea through once. Think about the thought of speaking something myterious to the ONE who knows everything. What is a mystery? A mystery is something unknown to the hearer but not the speaker. If a child knows which one of his siblings stole money from the parents, he knows a mystery that the parents don't know. He can choose to tell the parents of the mystery or not, but he knows what the mystery is. The parents do not know the mystery until they are told. Now, with that in mind, Can you truely speak a mystery to God?? No, you can't and Paul was rebuking what was going on with "Tongues" by using this example. Paul was speaking in a negative tone. He continued that tone and rebuked those who were speaking in tongues to self-edify or better, who after speaking in uninterpreted tongues were edified. Gifts are NEVER to edify ourselves, thus this statement is in the negative as well. 1 Cor. 12-14 are much easier if you understand the rebuking quality that they were written in. The Corinth church was a mess and a disgrace to Christians and Paul was not trying to praise them he was trying to fix them. Please let me know if you understand my point on mysteries. Thanks,

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    'The is no mention of gibberish in the Bible.'

     
  16. atestring

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    Edifying ones self is important.
    I cannot love my neighbor as myself unless I first love myself. Would it be selfish to love myself?
    Would it be wrong to be "STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT?
    Is it wrong to build up yourself in your most Holy Faith praying in the Holy Ghost?
    A chain is no stronger than it's weakest link.
    I as a link in God's kingdom have a responsiility to be edified( built up)
    To not be built up would be selfish!
     
  17. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    James 3-5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
    6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
    7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
    8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
    10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.


    In light of the scripture above, it is amazing to me that some proffessing Christians can tell others that they are probably demon pessessed, and call some of the gifts of the spirit
    "gibberish", and yet still profess that they are absolutely right!!

    Why do some people have to be right at all costs? Why do they call others all manner of names and make demeaning remarks and still proclaim"I alone am right in this matter"

    Reminds me of these men:

    Luke 18-10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



    What has this world come to when we sling nasty remarks at other Christians and take no thought at all about the consequences?
    :confused: [​IMG] :eek:

    He who readeth let him understand!!

    Selah,

    Tam

    [ January 13, 2006, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: tamborine lady ]
     
  18. Rev. Lowery

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    Why is there no speaking in tongues after the apostles until present day movement no record in history or in churches. Why only one small group of Christians if I where to attend one of Benny Hinns sermons would I be slain because only he can cause the spirit to slay me can the spirit itself not do this why does the Holy Ghost need help? Why if the gift of tongues is still present does he need a translator when he speaks to Spanish speaking people? Why can a charismatic not witness to someone who speaks German if the gift of tongues is real today. When someone I know doesn't speak Icelandic witnesses to an Icelandic person in there language, with no previous knowledge of the language, then I will believe that the gift has not ceased.
     
  19. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Amen Atestring!! [​IMG]
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    .

    Atestring said,

    'Edifying ones self is important.
    I cannot love my neighbor as myself unless I first love myself. Would it be selfish to love myself?
    Would it be wrong to be "STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT?
    Is it wrong to build up yourself in your most Holy Faith praying in the Holy Ghost?
    A chain is no stronger than it's weakest link.
    I as a link in God's kingdom have a responsiility to be edified( built up)
    To not be built up would be selfish!'

    .
     

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