Speaking in Tongues- What is it?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, Jun 14, 2005.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    Please take the time to read the following article. It's fascinating.

    Speaking in Tongues by Jeff Wehr

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A Chinese gentleman visited a charismatic church in which the members

    were speaking in tongues. One of the elders of the church recognized

    the Chinese man and visited his business the following week. When he

    asked the Chinese man how he liked the church service, the man shook

    his head in disapproval.

    The elder said, "What was wrong? I thought I heard a lady speak in

    tongues that sounded like Chinese."

    The Chinese man said, "She did speak in Chinese, and she was cursing

    God the whole time."

    This is just one of many such examples, of which I have heard, of

    individuals who believed that they were praising God, but who were in

    fact cursing Him.

    How could this be? Certainly the Holy Spirit would not lead someone to

    curse God. Could the devil have a counterfeit of the Biblical speaking in

    tongues?

    For those of you who have never heard of this phenomenon of people

    speaking in an ecstatic tongue, let me take a brief moment to explain.

    Today between 7% and 20% of all Christians "speak in tongues" from

    time to time in a language that is not their mother tongue. The example

    above, of the lady who spoke in Chinese, is exceptional because usually

    those who speak in "tongues," speak in a language that linguists say

    has no systematic resemblance to any human language that is spoken

    today. It is this most common form of "speaking in tongues" (the

    nonhuman, nonintelligible language) upon which we will focus our study.

    This phenomenon of spontaneously speaking in a language that is

    generally strange to humanity is of recent origin. While there were

    several incidents of tongue speaking during the 1800s, the first wave of it

    occurred at the beginning of the twentieth century.

    It began on December 31, 1900, at Bethel College in Topeka, Kansas.

    When Pastor Charles Parham laid his hands upon some of the students,

    they began to speak in a form of speech that was not recognizable to

    anyone. One of those young students was Miss Agnes Ozman.

    Six years later, in 1906, Ozman and several other students, who had

    received this experience, moved to Los Angeles and held meetings

    which started the "first Pentecostal effusion."

    Since then, this tongue-speaking experience has taken in over 300

    million Christians. What phenomenal growth! However, why is it

    happening now?

    Some say it is a sign of the soon coming of Christ, and perhaps it is.

    Yet, that alone does not explain or prove that it is of God, or of Satan.

    We do know that this form of ecstatic speech in an unknown language is

    not peculiar to Christianity--or even to religious people. This same

    phenomenon of speech is found among non-Christian religions,

    especially in Asia and Africa. This ecstatic speech is also found among

    atheists and agnostics.

    Certainly it is not the Holy Spirit who is performing this phenomenon in

    religions that reject Jesus as the Saviour, and through others who even

    deny the existence of God, but it is happening. Research has shown

    that all of these forms of ecstatic speech in Christian and non-Christian

    communities is identically the same "cross-linguistically" and

    "cross-culturally."

    Along with this gift to speak in an unknown tongue has come the gift to

    interpret these ecstatic utterances. Are these interpreters accurate?

    An experiment was performed in which someone speaking in an ecstatic

    tongue was recorded on tape. They then replayed the tape to several

    different people who claimed to have the gift to interpret these

    utterances. However, there was no similarity in the several

    interpretations. They ranged in their interpretation from saying that the

    utterances referred to a prayer for the health of someone's children--to

    praising God for a recent and successful church, fund-raising effort. It is

    evident from this example that the interpreters were not accurate. So

    where are they getting their gift to interpret?

    Of course, this phenomenon raises some very serious questions. If it is

    of the Holy Spirit, why do people misinterpret what is said? After all, the

    Bible says that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. See John 14:26. If

    this is of the Holy Spirit, then why is He manifesting the same gift

    through different religions that teach contradictory beliefs. After all, the

    Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. See John 16:13.

    It is easy enough to see that Satan would want to join the world's

    religions together through some spiritual manifestation. However, what

    does the Bible say concerning the speaking in tongues or in a different

    language?

    Mark 16
    First of all, Jesus foretold that His disciples would speak with "new

    tongues," "And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name

    shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall

    take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt

    them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark

    16:17-18.

    The context of Jesus' words is His commission for His disciples to

    evangelize the world. The speaking with "new tongues" was to enable

    the disciples to speak with people who spoke other languages. The

    disciples would speak in a language that was "new" to them but

    understood by their audience.

    When Jesus trained His disciples during His three-and-one-half-year

    ministry, He limited their training to reach out to the Jews living in Israel

    and Samaria. However, after Jesus ascended into heaven, He desired to

    send His disciples to every nation, tongue, and people. Consequently,

    He gifted them to speak in "new tongues" or languages.

    Acts 2
    In Acts 2:1-13 we have recorded the fulfillment of Jesus' prediction. The

    disciples and other fellow believers, 120 in number, gathered together for

    prayer and consecration in preparation to receive the outpouring of the

    Holy Spirit.

    When the day of Pentecost had come, the Holy Spirit came upon every

    individual, and they "began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit

    gave them utterance." Verse 4.

    The speaking in an "other tongue" did not come by man's own efforts,

    but it was a gift the Holy Spirit bestowed upon the followers of Christ

    when they were gathered together. "Jews, devout men, out of every

    nation under heaven. . . . And they were all amazed and marvelled . . .

    because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Verses

    5, 7, 6.

    Notice that the gift of the Holy Spirit to speak in a foreign and known

    human language was bestowed upon believers--not upon unbelievers.

    The purpose of the gift was to give unbelievers an opportunity to hear the

    gospel in their own language. Consequently, the gift itself would serve as

    a sign to unbelievers that the message they heard was from Heaven.

    The result of Jesus' followers receiving the gift to speak in a different

    language was the conversion of "three thousand" precious souls to

    Christ in one day. Verse 41.

    There were also present those who scoffed and mocked the disciples by

    suggesting that the disciples were drunk. See verse 13. They heard the

    gospel in their own language, thereby signifying that the gift bestowed

    upon the disciples was a definite sign that the message had the signet

    of Heaven. Yet, they rejected the message and the messengers.

    Acts 10
    The next example of "speaking in tongues" is found in Acts chapter 10.

    In this passage, the apostle Peter has an opportunity to teach Gentile

    believers in Caesarea. The Holy Spirit "fell on all them which heard the

    word. . . . For they heard them speak with tongues." Verse 44, 46.

    On this occasion as well, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers--both

    Jew and Gentile Christians. The Holy Spirit "fell" upon them suddenly,

    representing that it was a special endowment from Heaven and not from

    man. The purpose of the gift was the communication of what God had

    accomplished through His Son Jesus.

    Again we find this gift employed in a large metropolis where many

    different peoples and languages were represented. When Peter gave his

    report on the events of Caesarea, he said, "The Holy Ghost fell on them

    [in Caesarea], as on us at the beginning [in Jerusalem at Pentecost]."

    Acts 11:15. Of course, what happened in Jerusalem was that every man

    heard the gospel in his mother language.

    It is important to note that Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, did not

    need to explain the manifestation of "speaking in tongues" in Caesarea.

    Why? Because he, the author, had already defined the gift in Acts

    chapter 2. Peter himself confirms that it was the identical manifestation

    of the Holy Spirit as experienced at Pentecost.

    Acts 19
    In Acts chapter 19 we see this gift exercised in another major

    city--Ephesus. Here the apostle Paul met with some believers who had

    no knowledge of the work of the Holy Spirit. Because these disciples in

    Ephesus were baptized with John's baptism, Paul instructed them about

    the true baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Verse 5.

    Paul then baptized them in the name of Jesus and laid his hands upon

    them, and "the Holy Ghost came on them." Verse 6.

    This practice of the laying on of hands is often represented with the

    reception of the Holy Spirit, and as a sign that those involved were called

    to evangelize the world. Of course, the laying on of hands is not

    necessary for someone to receive the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2:1-4;

    9:10-18; 10:46-48. Nor does everyone "speak in tongues" because he

    received the laying on of hands. See Acts 2:41; 8:38-39; 9:18; 16:15, 33.

    It was simply a practice in those days as they dedicated themselves to

    receive God's Spirit, to accept Jesus as Lord, and to fulfill the gospel

    commission.

    Greek scholars tell us that the Greek form of the verb "to speak" in this

    passage is in the imperfect tense, indicating that the gift was bestowed

    for continuous and prolonged use. The believers in Jerusalem and

    Caesarea also received the same permanent gift to proclaim the gospel

    far and near.

    Commenting on these verses, Sister White wrote, "Thus they were

    qualified to labor as missionaries in Ephesus and its vicinity, and also to

    go forth to proclaim the gospel in Asia Minor." Review and Herald,

    August 31, 1911.

    1 Corinthians 12-14
    Now the passages that have generated the greatest amount of confusion

    and controversy are those found in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14.

    Some have suggested that Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19 do indeed

    describe speaking in a foreign language known to man, but that the gift

    represented in Corinthians is different. They argue that this form of

    ecstatic tongues is an angelic language used for personal prayer and the

    edification of the church.

    However, when we study the terminology found in all of these passages

    from Mark 16:17 to Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19, we find that the Greek

    word for "tongue" is the same. In fact, the verb "to speak" in tongues is

    the same in all of these accounts. Consequently, there is only one gift of

    tongues.

    Because the gift of tongues had become a permanent gift for those who

    received it, Paul gave some rules for the exercising of the gift during

    church. Apparently, many of the Corinthian believers were (1) causing

    commotion because several were speaking in tongues at the same time,

    (2) there was no one present who understood what they were saying,

    and (3) to the nonbelievers, who were watching, it seemed awkward,

    disorderly, and confusing. See 1 Corinthians 14:23.

    When one considers that the purpose of "speaking in tongues" was to

    reach unbelievers, it was disastrous when many of the Corinthian

    believers were misappropriating the gift. The gift was to be a sign to

    unbelievers that God had a message of salvation for them personally.

    See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22.

    First, Paul counsels them to speak in order, and then let only one

    interpret. See 1 Corinthians 14:27. The word for "interpret" means to

    "translate"--as from one known language to another. Consequently, one

    man would speak in an intelligible foreign language and then another

    man would translate it into the local language.

    Second, if there is no one to interpret, let the one who speaks in tongues

    keep silent. See 1 Corinthians 14:28. The gift of tongues was given to

    communicate truth. If a believer speaks in German, but there are no

    unbelievers who understand German, then another believer who

    understands German should translate the message in a language that

    the others can understand, otherwise, the message is aimless and

    unintelligible to all. Paul testified that he would rather speak five words

    that people could understand than ten thousand words that no one could

    understand. See 1 Corinthians 14:18-19.

    However, some have misunderstood the words of Paul when he said,

    "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not

    charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." 1

    Corinthians 13:1. The Greek conditional clause used in this passage

    indicates that Paul is speaking hypothetically. In other words, we know

    that man does not speak in the language of angels, but even if he could,

    it would profit him nothing if he had not the love of God in his heart.

    Then in another place Paul says, "For he that speaketh in an unknown

    tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth

    him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2.

    The believer who speaks "in the spirit" is speaking by the Holy Spirit.

    What is he speaking? He "speaketh mysteries"? Does God inspire men

    to speak about odd and secret things? No. Believers are the "stewards

    of the mysteries of God." 1 Corinthians 4:1. His servants speak about

    the "mystery of godliness." 1 Timothy 3:16. We are to make known the

    mystery of God. We are to declare the truth about God that has been

    previously misunderstood. This truth is revealed by the power of the Holy

    Spirit. As Paul said, "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me,

    that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the

    gospel." Ephesians 6:19.

    But why does it say that "no man understandeth him"? The problem in

    Corinth was that nobody present could understand him. He spoke in an

    intelligible language, but there was no one present who could understand

    that particular language. Consequently, he was not speaking unto men.

    As Paul said, "So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy

    to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall

    speak into the air." 1 Corinthians 14:9.

    In summary, let it be understood that (1) Jesus predicted the need and

    the endowment of this special gift to speak in a foreign and "new

    tongue," so that the gospel could be preached throughout the world. (2)

    The very manifestation of this gift was to be a "sign" to unbelievers that

    the message they were hearing was from Heaven. (3) The gift of tongues

    is not some ecstatic and unintelligible tongue, but it is indeed a known

    human language. The purpose of the gift was to communicate the gospel

    to the world's billions who have spoken thousands of different languages

    and dialects. (4) There is indeed a counterfeit to the Biblical speaking in

    tongues. It has taken the world by storm. Satan will use this counterfeit

    manifestation to communicate error. He endeavors to work upon the

    senses and the lower nature of man, namely, man's appetite, passions,

    and desires. This is to keep man from settling into the truth with his

    higher nature, namely, man's intellect, reason, and conscience.

    So often Satan has found success by playing upon the emotions of man

    and his senses, thereby bypassing his intellect, reason, and

    conscience. However, God's people must be intelligent upon that which

    is written in the Word of God. They must choose to do right, because it

    is right and because right doing is pleasing to God. They must allow

    their conscience to be wooed only by the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that

    proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4. Yet, so many are

    unsatisfied with the plain words of Scripture. They have a false

    salvational security because of this spiritual manifestation of tongues.

    Yet, those who shall make up the kingdom of God must live by faith.

    Day by day, moment by moment, they must walk with their Lord and

    Saviour. They must hunger and thirst for righteousness. See Matthew

    5:6.

    In summary, none of us are saved because we speak in tongues.

    Speaking in tongues is not even evidence that someone is saved. Many

    non-Christians and atheists speak in the same ecstatic and unintelligible

    tongue. Jesus warned the religious world, "Except ye see signs and

    wonders, ye will not believe." John 4:48. We are not to put our faith in

    the signs and wonders. They will increase as time draws to a close. We

    are to trust in the promises of God and prepare to live with our Maker

    and Redeemer forever and ever.


    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  2. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T
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    I want to add something of my own now about tongues. I have heard too many Christians acting as if they cannot be "saved" unless they speak in tongues. And they seem to think they are in some sort of specially chosen of God group because they do. But first of all, they do not even know what the Biblibal definition of speaking in tongues is... but second of all...

    Read Matthew chapter 7:
    12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
    13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


    Now stop and really think of what Jesus is trying to tell us here.

    He begins by telling us to enter the strait gate. He says to do what the law and the prophets tell you to do, doing unto others as you would have them to unto you.

    Then Jesus uses an illustration saying:
    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

    Jesus said many Christians will say Lord, Lord... but DONT EVEN KNOW HIM.
    Lk:6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

    These Christians would cast out devils, and do all sorts of things but the problem was THEY DID INIQUITY... iniquity simply means they sin. Sin is transgression of the Law. Remember Jesus started this thing with telling us to obey the law and the prophets.

    “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.” Luke 13:23-2.7


    You have taught in our streets, we have cast out devils, (you may as well add in there "we have spoken in tongues") ... but Jesus will say "I dont know you, you that sin."

    Jn:17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    You see, if you dont do what Jesus SAYS then you prove that you do not know Him, you do not know His ways. You dont know His principles for living.

    1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    If Jesus is not abiding in you and you are not keeping His commandments, then you do not know Him and you can speak in tongues all you want but that wont do you a bit of good.

    Satan uses this speaking in tongues as a decoy.. a diversion, to get Christians to really rest in a false security, thinking they are saved when they are actually not abiding in Christ at all. The Bible says we do not know God is we keep not His commandments, and Jesus said He is going to be telling some Christians that He does not know THEM... "ye that work iniquity (sin... transgression of the law".

    1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


    (think of the parable of the ten virgins when you read this)


    Jeremiah 16:9: For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride.
    10: And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?
    11: Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;
    12: And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:
    13: Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

    Many Christians need to really reconsider their obsession with speaking in tongues... firstly by studying the Scriptures to discover what it actually IS...

    Secondly they need to put their focus on loving God. 1Cor:2:9: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

    The question is Do you love God? REALLY? Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Jn:15:10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    You can NEVER earn your way to heaven... you can never get to heaven by your own merits.

    HOWEVER... the question is Do you love God? If you do, then you will prove this by doing what He says. "Lord, Lord, we have spoken in tongues" isnt going to do a bit of good for you, if you dont love God.

    Ezek:33:31: And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.


    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  3. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Were you aware that this has occured in a number of SDA churches?
     
  4. atestring

    atestring
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    Dear claudia,
    Can you tell me who this Chineese man is? Does he have a name?
    What is the name of the Church that this happened in?
    When did this happen?
    What were the chineese words used to curse?
    I have heard this story for over 30 years and nobody can tell me where, when , who , or what about this story. The only difference in your story is that the story used to bee about a chineese laundry man.
    Why don't you tell mr jeff who wrote this that the stroy is suppose to start with the phrase,
    "once upon a time."
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother Atestring!

    This story has all eight marks of an urban legend (AKA: modern myth).

    I've also seen some urban legends that even
    have specific who, where, when, what, etc.
    Anyway, the fact the story has evolved is
    interesting. Most urban legends do NOT evolve
    to the point where they are logical and make
    scientific sense. The old "missing hours of Joshua" legend indicates that the author
    didn't even understand what computers can and
    cannot do :(
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
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    Does your post indicate Ed, that you believe, when God extended the day for Joshua in order for him to vanquish the Amelekites; you believe that this historical event as recorded in the Word of God is simply "urban myth." ??
     
  7. Pete

    Pete
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    I feel like stirring...Just for a change... ;) :D

    [STIR]
    Dear atestring,
    Can you tell me the current population of China? (To the nearest 1,000 will do ;) ) In addition to the previous question, could you provide us with the current number of Chinese descent and/or speaking Americans? (I'm starting to feel generous, to the nearest 10,000 will do ;) )
    What are their names?
    Can you provide signed statements from all of them that none were involved in any event matching the one described in original post?
    [/STIR]

    Ah, needed that :D


    Was going to go on to a couple of serious ones, but wayyy past my bed time [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Oh, & DHK I think Ed was probably refering to THIS
     
  8. atestring

    atestring
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    Can you find one Chineese man that will admit that this is his story and be prepared to...
    Never mind I won't dignify your question by answering it.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK
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    There is plenty of documentation Atestring. But what is the use in telling you. If I told you where to look you wouldn't accept it anyway, or bother to spend the money, or find it in a library. Or you wouldn't believe it because you are prejudiced against the source.

    But here it is anyway (see if my prediction is true).

    Go, and buy the hard copy (not what you find on the internet) of MacArthur's book, "Charismatic Chaos," and he will provide you plenty of evidence, all documented. You must buy the book. That which is found on the internet is condensed, and does not provide the footnotes which has the documentation that you keep asking for. Go and buy the book.
    DHK
     
  10. atestring

    atestring
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    There is plenty of documentation Atestring. But what is the use in telling you. If I told you where to look you wouldn't accept it anyway, or bother to spend the money, or find it in a library. Or you wouldn't believe it because you are prejudiced against the source.

    But here it is anyway (see if my prediction is true).

    Go, and buy the hard copy (not what you find on the internet) of MacArthur's book, "Charismatic Chaos," and he will provide you plenty of evidence, all documented. You must buy the book. That which is found on the internet is condensed, and does not provide the footnotes which has the documentation that you keep asking for. Go and buy the book.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]I hve the book at home.
    It is not worth the paper it is written on.
    But tell me the page number that has documentation of the chineese man in this story.
    While you are at it give me some documentation of your vancouver greek Scholar!
    Have you got any other myths?
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Sorry, my bad.

    I said:
    //The old "missing hours of Joshua" legend
    indicates that the author
    didn't even understand what computers can and
    cannot do
    :( //

    I should have said for clarity:
    //The old "missing hours of Joshua FOUND BY COMPUTER" legend
    indicates that the author
    (of the legend)
    didn't even understand what computers can and
    cannot do
    :( //

    Obviously "missing hours of Joshua" is from
    the Bible and NOT a myth. But no computer could
    find the missing hours, for computers just
    output stuff as a result of the programming
    and the input, they don't find 'missing' stuff.
     
  12. Link

    Link
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    I have heard or read of anecdotal accounts of people who heard others speak in tongues that they recognized. The bulk of the stories I have heard have been about people saying good things in tongues. In fact, the only ‘cursing God’ stories I recall reading about have been on this forum.

    I recall hearing that a Bible college professor at the time, Ray Trask, whose brother later because General Overseer of the Assembly of God, had worked on a mission field and knew a little of a certain Asian language. Later, in another country, the US I suppose, he heard a message in tongues in this language, and he knew enough of it to recognize the phrase ‘the Bread of life.’ Someone in the church gave the interpretation, and it was about the Bread of life.

    Jack Heyford, an author, teacher, and pastor has told his experience of meeting an American on an airplane who did not believe in God. Heyford offered to send the man some apologetic books for him to read, but he refused. As he was sitting there, he sensed the Holy Spirit telling him to speak in tongues. Eventually, he did. He told the man he could say some words that he thought might be the man’s language and asked the man to listen. The man said it was an ancient dialect of his language, and it was about light coming down from above. Heyford then explained what speaking in tongues was, and that he had been speaking in tongues. He offered to send the books again and the man accepted his offer and agreed to read them.

    Don Basham wrote a book on tongues in the 70’s or 80’s that mentioned someone praying for some Maoris in tongues in New Zealand. It turns out the man was speaking Maori and the natives understood what he was praying about.

    I have also known people who have heard messages given in tongues, gotten the interpretation, but someone else gave it before they had a chance to speak up. This happened to a friend of mine in middle school. He was a gifted teenaged preacher, and often volunteered to preach in our Bible class at the Christian school we sent to. He told me how he’d heard someone give a message in tongues in our church, and he got the interpretation. Someone else gave the same interpretation he got. One of my roommates in college had had the same experience. I have heard the same thing about prophecies, where one person knows the prophecy, but someone else gives it first in the meeting. (This fits well with the idea in I Corinthians 14 of letting the first prophet hold his peace, so the second can prophecy, because God is not dependant on that particular prophet to convey his message.)

    Does speaking in tongues make someone more spiritual and holy than other believers? No, and neither does prophecy. Balaam prophesied by the Spirit of God. Does that mean Balaam was as holy as Moses, or that he went to heaven? No. Caiaphas prophesied the death of Christ, while plotting to have Him killed. Jesus gave Judas the power to do miracles along with the other apostles.

    Signs and wonders can demonstrate the power of God in those who do them, and testify to the truth of the message that is preached. But if someone does signs and wonders, that does not mean he will never err from the truth, or that he does the Father’s will. Jesus will reject some who call Him ‘Lord’ but did not do what He says. Should this verse be used to condemn those who do miracles, prophecy, and cast out devils? Of course not. Jesus did these things, and He was righteous. His apostles did such things. We just need to be wise to the fact that if someone does miracles and lives a sinful life, not to think that he is holy. Miracles are not a guarantee of salvation.

    There are some who quote ‘wicked and evil generation seeketh after a sign’ as if this quote indicated that all who sought for signs were wicked and adulterous. If a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, it does not follow that all who seek for signs are wicked and adulterous. The wicked and adulterous eat dinner. Does that make all who eat dinner wicked and adulterous? No. The apostles asked God to do signs and wonders in Acts 4, and they had a good reason for it, for the sake of Jesus Christ. They wanted to preach the Gospel accompanied by signs and wonders, a very Biblical thing to do.

    Are there counterfeit tongues? I think there are. Demons are apparently able to make people talk, and they are able to speak many languages. There may also be some people who babble and think they are exercising a spiritual gift out there as well. But neither of these things detract from the genuineness of the real gift that we see in scripture.

    Some people will ask if the Chinese laundryman in the urban legend heard people cursing God in ‘tongues’ what is to prove that your tongues are not demonic. Since one cannot understand his own message in tongues without the gift of interpretation, this can be a frightening question for some. But let us think about what Jesus said on the subject. In Luke 11, Jesus asked if any of them, if their children asked for a fish, would give them a snake, etc. He then asked if they, being evil, knew how to give good gifts to their children, how much more would the Father give good gifts to them that ask Him. In light of Jesus teaching, should a Christian, who is confident and secure that He is a child of God, be afraid that God has given him a bad thing when he asked for a good gift? Of course not. As I John teaches, we can know that we are his children if we obey him, and have love one for another. God has also given us other gifts in the larger body to help protect the body from a false manifestation of tongues, gifts like the interpretation of tongues and discernment of spirits. So true children of God who are walking with the Lord in faith and holiness should not be paranoid about having received false gifts.

    What is speaking in tongues, and how does it work? ‘Tongues’ is an old-fashioned word for ‘languages’ used to translate the fact that the Greek word for languages is the same word for tongue. Speaking in tongues is speaking in languages. In I Corinthians 14, we see that there was a gift of speaking in tongues used in the congregation. The speaker, apparently, did not know what he was saying unless he or someone else had a gift of interpretation. If tongues were used in the church, they had to be interpreted. Paul puts no restriction on using tongues in private prayer.

    Speaking in tongues builds up the one who does it, but it only builds up the church if there is interpretation. In I Corinthians 14, in the situation that Paul described, no one understood the message in tongues unless it was interpreted. In Acts 2, the crowd, made up of speakers of many languages, could understand the message spoken in tongues.
     
  13. prophecynut

    prophecynut
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    "Assembly of God" "Jack Hayford" "Don Basham"

    All are involved in the charismatic movement. All of them speak in gibberish; they never heard true speaking in tongues. Just how do you expect them to tell the difference when all they ever done is counterfeit the true gift. Don Basham used to teach people how to deliver themselves from demons through rebukes. Anybody comes to my church attempting to decieve others with their babbling are gonna get booted out of the church.

    Buy MacArthur's book! I have three by him; The Charismatics; Speaking In Tongues and Spiritual Gifts.

    Stop sucking on milk and act like mature Christians!
     
  14. cindig2

    cindig2
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    Amen prophecynut. I agree 100% with you. I have John MacArthur's book, it is very good.
     
  15. Link

    Link
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    Prophecynut

    I see you offer no scripture or logic to support your idea that these men are only familiar with gibberish. You do not believe their experiences about tongues because they speak in tongues? That is silly. Of course if they have experienced true speaking in tongues, they will be inclined to believe in it.

    If someone believes something that you do not, does that mean their testimony about an experience is a lie?

    I believe you are wrong about your beliefs in tongues. Does that mean if you testify about something you experienced, that I should consider you to be a liar?

    So what if Basham did tell believers to rebuke believers out of themselves, assuming that is true. Does that mean his accounts of his experiences were not valid? No, of course not. Do you have any reason for not believe Heyford or Trask besides the fact that they believe the opposite of yourself on this issue?

    Apparently, Heyford's experience has offered some empirical proof that he does not only speak gibberish when he speaks in tongues. If your reason for rejecting Heyford's testimony is that he just speaks gibberish when he speaks in tongues, this reason has been taken away from you, because there is evidence that Heyford once spoke an Indian language that an Indian recognized when he spoke in tongues.

    I read over McArthur's book and didn't find a decent argument against gifts of the Spirit today. MacArthur had three main types of arguments as I recall. (It's been over 10 years since I checked the book out.)

    1. The strawman argument-- MacArthur chose crazy examples of Charismatic abuses and then presented them as typical of Charismatics.

    2. MacArthur labeled the types of experiences he does not agree with as 'mysticism' and then called them 'mysticism' as if that made them bad. A lot of experiences recorded in the Bible would be labelled 'mysticism' if we applied the same standard.

    3. MacArthur comes up with an elaborate argument about God only doing miracles during time periods when scriptures were being written. His argument has not weight to it because the Bible does NOT TEACH the miracles would not occur at other times, and most of his arguments come from a time period before the 'last days' when God promised to pour out His Spirit on all flesh. This was a time period before the Holy Spirit was poured out on the saints as He is today. Jack Deere points out how MacArthur so narrowly defines the word 'miracle' to fit his argument. I also see several examples of miracles recorded in scripture that apparently occured during times when the Bible was not being written. What evidence is there that scripture was being written in Elisha's time? From the text of scripture, we can conclude that the scriptural accounts of Elisha were written much later. Yet during that time period, God did many miracles through Elisha.

    Basically, MacArthur's case against spiritual gifts does not have a leg to stand on.
     
  16. atestring

    atestring
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    Amen,
    Link
     
  17. atestring

    atestring
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    dk&h
    Do you have those page numbers yet?
     
  18. cindig2

    cindig2
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    Charles Stanley has a series entitled "Speaking In Tongues," that is also very good and informative. Charles Stanley grew up in a Pentecostal family, his grandfather was a Pentecostal preacher. He believes that it is the devils way to muddy the gospel by people looking for "experiences."
    Been there, done that. People that believe in tongues say there are three different types. The one on the Day of Pentecost, tongues in church, and a private prayer language. Tongues were always a language. What if salvation meant one thing in a certain verse, but something else in another, I don't think so. The word tongue means language. I don't believe the Holy Spirit would give a gift that just anyone could counterfeit. Now, a language, that can't be counterfeited. Why would it say in the Bible to make sure there is an interperter before you speak in tongues? hmmmmmm.....
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    SEE HERE

    I hope this answers your question once and for all. If speaking in tongues is of the Holy Spirit why are there "hundreds" of expeiences such as these, many of them documented??
    DHK
     
  20. atestring

    atestring
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    SEE HERE

    I hope this answers your question once and for all. If speaking in tongues is of the Holy Spirit why are there "hundreds" of expeiences such as these, many of them documented??
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     

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