Speaking of Mormons,

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, May 20, 2005.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    I note that we have a long thread about Eerdmans publishing a Mormon book, so I have a question.

    In the Other Christians section of the Baptist Boards, we allow Oneness people who reject and teach against the Trinity to post there, why do we not allow Mormons to post in there?
     
  2. Bible-boy

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    Hello Ben,

    I can't speak for the Webmaster; however, I assume that the reason is that Oneness Theology is simply a heretical departure from orthodox Christianity. Mormonism on the other hand is simply a full-blown cult and is not Christianity in any form. That is to say that they are not simply mistaken in their Christology and Theology, they deliberately teach a false doctrine. Mormonism is at its heart paganism and idolatry because it ultimately exhalts man, a created being, to god status. Oneness Theology does not do that. Remember, in order to be a heretic (or hold a heretical teaching) one must first be within the bounds of Christianity.
     
  3. Marcia

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    I totally agree with you Ben. I have brought this up to the moderators and appealed for a policy barring Oneness followers from posting anywhere on the BB. Oneness followers are as heretical as the Mormons, just in a different way. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and they deny the Trinity. Their error involves the very nature of God and the nature of Christ and is therefore a deeply serious heresy. In fact, this heresy was denounced in the 3rd century.

    The moderators did ban one very vocal Oneness follower not too long ago. As far as I know, there is only one Oneness follower still posting in the non-Baptist threads (MEE) but I do not understand why she is allowed to continue to post. She is, in fact, posting on a thread on Oneness that is going on now in the Other Christian Denominations forum. She has openly denounced the Trinity and posted heretical views many times. And by heretical, I don't mean about secondary issues, but about the nature of God and Christ.
     
  4. Craigbythesea

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    Bible-boy wrote,

    Marcia wrote,

    Bible-boy is correct. Oneness Christians are born-again Christians caught up in a very serious error.

    Marcia is absolutely wrong. Mormons are NOT born-again Christians caught up in a very serious error—they are members of a pseudo-Christian cult! There is no comparison whatsoever!

    ______________________________________
    I have not the words to express my disdain for those who profess to be Christians but who make it their business to viciously attack the body of Christ. --Anonymous


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Soulman

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    Posted by Craigbythesea:Bible-boy is correct. Oneness Christians are born-again Christians caught up in a very serious error.

    Craig, You call oneness people born again christians. I would assume you mean saved people when you say that. I found some of their teachings as listed here on this site:http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessteach.htm

    1.Denies the doctrine of the Trinity.

    2.Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation.

    3.Jesus is God the Father.

    4.Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

    5.The name of God is "Jesus."

    6.Baptism is necessary for salvation.

    7.Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son.

    8.Teaches that the He existed as the Father.

    9.Being born again means repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues.

    10.Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid.

    11.Baptism must be administered with the phrase, "In the name of Jesus" instead of the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).

    12.Speaking in tongues is a necessary requirement to demonstrate that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and is, therefore, saved. It is claimed to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

    13.Restitution of all things, though the devil and the angels will not be restored.

    14.Women may be pastors.

    15.Only Oneness people will go to heaven.

    They clearly are mixing works and grace. They don't know the Jesus of the bible and don't acknowledge God the Father. I don't believe they are any closer to heaven than the Mormons or JWs. They are deceived and with those beliefs' cannot be saved biblically.
     
  6. Ben W

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    Craig, I am not sure that Marcia said or implied that Mormons are in any way born again, in fact quite the opposite.

    Marcia, you said


    "I totally agree with you Ben. I have brought this up to the moderators and appealed for a policy barring Oneness followers from posting anywhere on the BB. Oneness followers are as heretical as the Mormons, just in a different way. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and they deny the Trinity. Their error involves the very nature of God and the nature of Christ and is therefore a deeply serious heresy. In fact, this heresy was denounced in the 3rd century".

    Well I totally agree with you too! [​IMG]
     
  7. Watchman

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    A very touchy subject it is when we come down to making a judgement as to who is saved and who is not. However, concerning the oneness crowd, what concerns me is the words of Jesus, "If ye believe not that I am HE, ye shall die in your sins." Now it becomes vitally important that the question of "HE Who?" be answered precisely.
    How do we answer HE Who? To me, it must be, He is who He really and truly is.
    Now, is He really and truly who the Oneness crowd professes Him to be? From Soulman's excellent post, the answer is NO!
    So, I must agree here with Ben, Marcia and Soulman: they are not, because they cannot be Christians, Christ's sheep. We must make judgements based on the Scriptures, not emotions.
    What I get from the Scriptures is that all of those that are Christ's are His sheep; and as such will be led to know the truth about CRITICAL points.
     
  8. Craigbythesea

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    Soulman wrote,

    Several denominations teach a form of the oneness doctrine, and the individual members of these denominations represent a wide spectrum of belief about the nature of God. All of the oneness denominations that I have studied base their oneness beliefs exclusively upon their understanding of the Bible. Some of these denominations have seminaries in which the nature of God is studied from the Scriptures in great detail. This cannot be said of the Mormons or the JW’s.

    Many, if not most, of the denominations in which we find the oneness doctrine believe that water baptism is a sacrament or rite of the church through which some measure of grace is bestowed by God upon the one being baptized. This, of course, is in agreement with all of the mainline Christian denominations. However, some of the denominations in which we find the oneness doctrine strongly argue that one must be baptized “in the name of Jesus” for the remission of sins. This belief comes, of course, from Acts 2:38 and additional supporting texts from the New Testament.

    And none of the oneness denominations that I have studied add any requirement of keeping the Law of Moses to the grace of God. Perhaps you are confusing the works of the Law with works of righteousness and obedience to Christ and his teachings. Works of the Law are not required for salvation, but works of righteousness and obedience to Christ and his teachings are required for salvation. See, for example, James 2:14-26,

    14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
    15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
    16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
    17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
    18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
    19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
    20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
    21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
    23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
    24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
    26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    Therefore, it is clear that the oneness people base their beliefs solidly upon the Bible rather than some golden tablets or false prophets from hell. And I have personally observed the Spirit of Christ in some of the oneness people. Their beliefs regarding the nature of God are very different from mine, but the bottom line is that they all believe that Jesus in God and that He died on the cross for their sins.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Soulman

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    Craigbythesea: Many, if not most, of the denominations in which we find the oneness doctrine believe that water baptism is a sacrament or rite of the church through which some measure of grace is bestowed by God upon the one being baptized. This, of course, is in agreement with all of the mainline Christian denominations.

    The bible teaches that baptism is an act of obedience and is a public profession of faith in Christ. I am aware of no additional grace to be added to the one being baptized. Baptism in no way helps or deters ones ability to be saved.

    Acts 2:38 tells us first of all to repent then bebaptized. Repentance is what gives us the remission of sin 5through the shed blood of Christ. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. If you are getting baptized for remission of sin, you are only taking a bath.

    Posted by Craigbythesea: Works of the Law are not required for salvation, but works of righteousness and obedience to Christ and his teachings are required for salvation.

    We do not obey Christ to go to heaven, we obey because we are going to heaven.

    James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

    True faith in Christ is what saves a man. This faith produces good works. The bible states we shall know them by their fruits. He is stating that this unfruitful type of faith is invalid.
    Thereby validating James 2: 17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
    Saving faith produces works. Works in no wise produce salvation.

    Yes. I can see that oneness people use the bible as their means of justification. They don't need some golden tablets or false prophets from hell to end up unsaved. All they need is an organization to twist the scriptures in a way as to lead the person down the wrong path.

    2 Cor 11:13-15 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    If people don't place the truth as paramount in their christianity, they set themselves up for deception.

    Deuteronomy 4:29
    But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    We must seek God with our entire being and not just blindly follow someones teaching. We must in addition to seeking God, seek the truth.

    John 4:23-24
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Seeking God's truth is what keeps us and sets us apart from religion. The oneness people are nothing more than a religion made up of other religions. If they were truly seeking God's truth the bible says they would find it.

    John 8:32
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Titus 1:2
    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
     
  10. Craigbythesea

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    Soulman wrote,

    According to your logic, only those Baptists who are correct in all of their beliefs are saved. And considering the HUGE variation in beliefs among Baptists, not very many of them (if any at all) are saved! Personally, I believe that we are saved by grace through faith rather than by human perfection in our doctrinal beliefs. :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Soulman

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    Posted by Craigbythesea:According to your logic, only those Baptists who are correct in all of their beliefs are saved. And considering the HUGE variation in beliefs among Baptists, not very many of them (if any at all) are saved! Personally, I believe that we are saved by grace through faith rather than by human perfection in our doctrinal beliefs.

    Craig,
    I said nothing about being baptist only. I am talking about christians seeking God's truth as stated in the bible.

    Man! You are right about the diversity of baptists though. I wonder how many are tares among the wheat as well.

    I also beleive we are saved by grace through faith. Human perfection is a misnomer as it doesn't exist.

    It is faith in the Jesus of the bible and His grace that saves us. Anything else is part of the quagmire of religion.
     
  12. blackbird

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    In earthly---non-theological terms, Ben-----allowing Mormons to post would be equated with allowing the Fox to guard the Hen house!!! :eek:
     
  13. robycop3

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    Can't speak for every individual within Oneness, but I will say this w/o hesitation...that the Oneness thingie is a [bCULT![/B]

    It's a pseudo-Christian set of false doctrines, as is LSD...er....LDS, & Jehovah False Witness.
     

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