Speaking of the Constitution

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by TexasSky, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. TexasSky

    TexasSky
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Whatever happened to this ammendment in terms of "Christian activities in public places"?

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
     
  2. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    72
    Don't you know? The constitution is a "living document!" :rolleyes:
     
  3. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Article X

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    This is not related to "Christian activities in public places". Certainly such activities are allowed, and fall under the right to peaceably assemble. However, this has nothing to do with the government endorsing relgion by placing religious texts on courthouse lawns or walls, a practice in violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment to said Constitution. I fully support our rights as Christians to publicly assemble. That is a strawman, as it is not an issue being debated.
     
  4. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is not true according to the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS ruled today that it is not a violation to do so if it says it isn't. Or conversely, that it is a violation unless it says it is.
     
  5. OCC

    OCC
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I don't think the Constitution should be the focus. You all should practice your faith whether the Constitution, the government, or the law says you can or you cannot.
     
  6. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Politically, the Constitution is the focus.

    Obviously, we Christians are going to serve God regardless of what the SCOTUS rules.
     
  7. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is not true according to the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS ruled today that it is not a violation to do so if it says it isn't. Or conversely, that it is a violation unless it says it is. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, that was a clearly defined set of rulings, wasn't it?
     
  8. KenH

    KenH
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    32,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep. [​IMG]
     
  9. TexasSky

    TexasSky
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I don't want my son growing up in a nation that tries to make him ashamed of being a Christian.


    That is the bottom line for me.

    To "outlaw the public display" of things like the nativity, the ten commandments, the cross, etc., indicates there is something "wrong" with them all. It endorses the secular viewpoint that Christians are dangerous, evil, etc.

    It also violates my trust.
    If it is okay for "Gay Pride" to meet in the school yard, it had BETTER be okay for my pastor to come down there and hold Sunday School.

    Right now - the only morals being tossed out of public places in the name of "separation of Church and State" are the Christian morals.

    I - for one - am tired of that.

    When you teach a viewpoint that is totally contradictorary to standard Christian beliefs, whether you call it "religion" or "religious persecution" or not - it IS endorsing a view point.

    I am just demanding equal time.

    The film I wrote about is meant to be used as a tool to force schools to bring dildo's into schools and teach your child how to put a condom on it, while cutting OUT or downplaying abstinance only education.

    The film also endorses the rights of "Gay And Proud" to meet in a High School. Where is the right of a Christian to do that?

    How many of you have kids who are reading things like "The Bluest Eye" and "The Color Purple" in class? Have you READ those things? They contain such filth that students assigned those readings asked to not be forced to read them. But, heaven forbid you open a bible in class.

    In our city the Justice Department had to step in. Seems a college professor at a state owned University posted a website saying that he would no write any letters of recommendation for any Medical School Sudent unless the student agreed to sign a statement declaring that Creationism was totally wrong, and evolution was the only correct theory of man's development.

    Please don't preach "Separation of church and state" at me. That isn't what is happening.

    What is happening is religious persecution, and the promotion of non-Christian beliefs.

    What is happening is the silence of Christians, and the promotion of sin.

    Call a spade a spade.
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK. What are you gonna do about it, Texas?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. TexasSky

    TexasSky
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Joseph,

    There is no, "going to do," involved. I am doing what I can where I can.

    First - I pray.
    Second - I pray some more.

    I am active in my church, and see that my son is surrounded by Christian influences beyond our church. His baseball coach is a minister from a small town near us. His orchestra conductor is the music director of a bible church near us.

    I talk to my children, daily, about the fact that "popular or not," Christ has to come first.

    I get involved.

    I have been elected to various political party posts at various times in my life, but I am not "as active" in the that end of the political realm anymore.

    I am on a first name basis with the majority of my school board, the principals of the schools, the librarians of the schools. I help campaign for Christians running for office. I personally know the regents of the local Universities. (There are 3 in our town, plus a college.)

    I encourage and mentor Christian young people, and let them know that they have support at the administration level when it comes to Christian values.

    I educate myself on what is going on in the schools, and I took the time to learn enough about the law to step in at times and point out problems with the way things are being handled. The demand for "balance," and "equal time," often is enough to stop "unbalanced" teaching.

    I step up and show support, in any way possible, for men and women who are persecuted for taking a Christian stand.

    When "GAP" was forbidden admission into the schools, I, and other Christians, expressed our deep gratitude to the school board for their stance.

    I stay in communication with my Governor, State Legislature, Senator and Congressmen - whether they are men I voted for or not. I have written articles for the newspapers, I have exchanged correspondence, regarding Christian persecution, with two different presidents.

    I encourage Christians, young or old, "new" or "old," to make their voices heard in a loving, but firm manner.
     
  12. OCC

    OCC
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    "I am just demanding equal time."

    Texas...you live in a sinful world. God does not care if you get "equal" time or not. Do you expect the world to cater to you as a Christian? I don't...and feel much peace since I learned this. The world ain't gonna like us and that's just fine.

    "Right now - the only morals being tossed out of public places in the name of "separation of Church and State" are the Christian morals." Just as Jesus said would happen. I read you had described what it means to be a disciple. A disciple does not care if the world does not hate him and he does not get "equal time".

    Do all the things you are doing, that's good. Just don't expect the world to like you and don't expect things to change. they will only get worse. You serve God by doing what you are doing, not by the results of what you are doing.
     
  13. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't confuse religious neutrality with persecution. People in 2005 America have no idea what real persecution is. Even some hostility toward religion does not equate to persecution. That is too strong a word.
     
  14. OCC

    OCC
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    MP, you are so right.
     
  15. patrick

    patrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    376
    Likes Received:
    0
    We need to be careful and think about what we want and what we might get. School boards have to walk a tight line.

    Myself during the school year, I am in a different school 4 days a week. I don't go in and preach but I go to build relationships. If I step over the line than other groups can force their way in. I am considred a counsler by the school board. I can live with that. I have students who will share the gospel in all the system schools. I work on what I can and equip my kids to the fishers of men they are called to be. We have seen many kids come to our church by this way.

    The system aint perfect but I am not going to buck it either.
     
  16. OCC

    OCC
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Yeah kinda like if you want prayer in schools...well that would entitle kids to bring in "satanic prayers" and nothing could be done about it.

    Besides, you go to school to learn. Not to force unbelievers to pray. School isn't church. [​IMG]
     
  17. emeraldctyangel

    emeraldctyangel
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2005
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh so true Patrick. You can exhibit Christian values and they most certainly cannot regulate that. People who are looking for a life less than ordinary (you might have a better term, but this is mine) will follow you wherever you go, when you offer them the map to peace and God's love. I think that is awesome. I will pray for you continued success.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Supreme Court may have been schizophrenic on their ruling, but clearly don't consider a display of the ten commandments as an establishment of a state church where citizens are coerced into membership, that is the only meaning that can be gleaned from an accurate reading of the establishment clause.

    Besides the fact that they made these rulings while the ten commandments stared down at them from the wall of their very courtroom. How can they not think its OK, unbelievable hypocrisy, clearly called out by Justice Scalia's dissent. They had not choice in the texas case because they would have had to get out the sandblaster in their own room! But they can refer to that as a "celebration of various historical foundations of our judeo-christian legal heritage" What utter hogwash from politicized partisan phonies (meaning no disrespect to their honorable positions of course)

    The current view of church/state separation which you seem to espouse at least to some degree does not come from the constitution at all, but from court precedent from the 1960s gleaned from a Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists. TJ, who is the most clear proponent of anything resembling a "wall of separation" was not even in the U.S. when the constitution or the bill of rights was ratified.

    The current view of Church/State separation is a farce, a ridiculous falshood promoted by the secularists that dominate higher education and the beauracratic establishment of Washington.

    The Constitution allows for and encourages religion and religious expression everywhere! with government neither forcing citizens to join a particular religion, or interfering in the public and open practice of any religion. A far cry from the current twisted interpretation of a document that is very clear, mixed with some documents that while interesting, have no inherint legal weight.

    So now we have students in school that can learn about Wicca, Islam, or Nature Worship with full endorsement, but get persecuted when they want to pray to the true God or carry his Word. Even if I were not a christian it would bother me, since I don't see how you can avoid believing religious freedom was part of our founding when you actually bother to read what the founding fathers wrote.
     
  19. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2005
    Messages:
    10,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Supreme Court may have been schizophrenic on their ruling, but clearly don't consider a display of the ten commandments as an establishment of a state church where citizens are coerced into membership, that is the only meaning that can be gleaned from an accurate reading of the establishment clause.

    Besides the fact that they made these rulings while the ten commandments stared down at them from the wall of their very courtroom. How can they not think its OK, unbelievable hypocrisy, clearly called out by Justice Scalia's dissent. They had not choice in the texas case because they would have had to get out the sandblaster in their own room! But they can refer to that as a "celebration of various historical foundations of our judeo-christian legal heritage" What utter hogwash from politicized partisan phonies (meaning no disrespect to their honorable positions of course)

    The current view of church/state separation which you seem to espouse at least to some degree does not come from the constitution at all, but from court precedent from the 1960s gleaned from a Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists. TJ, who is the most clear proponent of anything resembling a "wall of separation" was not even in the U.S. when the constitution or the bill of rights was ratified.

    The current view of Church/State separation is a farce, a ridiculous falshood promoted by the secularists that dominate higher education and the beauracratic establishment of Washington.

    The Constitution allows for and encourages religion and religious expression everywhere! with government neither forcing citizens to join a particular religion, or interfering in the public and open practice of any religion. A far cry from the current twisted interpretation of a document that is very clear, mixed with some documents that while interesting, have no inherint legal weight.

    So now we have students in school that can learn about Wicca, Islam, or Nature Worship with full endorsement, but get persecuted when they want to pray to the true God or carry his Word. Even if I were not a christian it would bother me, since I don't see how you can avoid believing religious freedom was part of our founding when you actually bother to read what the founding fathers wrote.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Superdave,

    I am aware where the phrase "separation of church & state" come from. However, the term is a shorthand way of stating the combination of the establishment and the free exercise clause. You cannot have freedom OF religion unless you also have freedom FROM religion. The establishment clause doesn't, as you seem to think, ONLY mean that Congress shall not establish a state church with requisite membership. It also means you cannot use the power of government to compel or promote religion of any type. Precedential case law has upheld this.

    You are also incorrect that public schools endorse any religion. Sure, you can teach ABOUT Wicca, Islam, Hinduism, and yes even Christianity. This is important that children may understand other cultures as a part of sociology and geography. However, public schools may not promote BELIEF IN any religion. If you want that, send your kids to a Christian school, as is your right. The public schools are for everyone, not just Christians.

    As i said in a previous thread, this persecution complex some Christians have is ridiculous. No American Christian has any idea what real persecution is. You can watch Christian TV, listen to Christian radio, read Christian magazines, freely worship in church, home, or in any public place. This is not persecution. Has anyone tried to feed you to a lion lately? Have you been whipped for being a Christian? Has anyone reported you to police for praying over a meal? Religious neutrality is not persecution, nor would even mild anti-religious actions.

    Persecution? I hardly think so.
     
  20. TexasSky

    TexasSky
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    King James,

    I not only don't expect the world to like me, but I don't want them to. If they do, I'm definately not handling my spiritual life well.

    I do not believe in trying to legislate Christianity. Obviously you can't. However - I do believe that Christians must stand up for Christian values before Christianity becomes as illegal here as it is in China.

    We keep "moving back the line."

    When I was young - you didn't just have a morning prayer - you prayed as a community and as a nation, and you did it without shame. You did it with respect. Men removed their hats, and people bowed their heads. You prayed before any school assembly, every PTA meeting, every athletic event, every parade.

    Then someone said, "That isn't fair to Jews, Hindus, Muslims." Well, excuse me, but we used to call ourselves a Christian nation, and despite the horrible condition we are in, the majority of Americans profess to be Christian. I don't go to Saudie Arabia or Israel and ask them to change their religious habits to suit me. Why must I change mine to suit heathens?
    And how is it justified as a Christian to do so? Wasn't the main focus of Daniel's story the fact that he did NOT give into public pressure to hide his faith?

    But, people said, "Well, I wouldn't want my child praying to someone else's God. Mandatory prayer is wrong." So they eliminated prayer in school.

    I remember when that passed folks. It was hard to miss. The woman behind it all was also suing my church for having a parking lot.

    Well, next thing we knew, she was suing my sister's school. One of the teacher's would show up at 7:00 a.m. every day to meet with students who wanted to attend a bible study class. She sued and said it wasn't right for tax dollars to let that happen.

    People said, "Well, you know, she has a point."

    For a few years I actually had to listen to misinterpretations of that nonsense to: "You can't carry a bible to school," and "You can't say the pledge because it mentions God."

    Fortunately the courts over turned that nonsense.

    Then I heard a young man, invited to pray at a ball game. He was told, "Pray, but don't mention Christ." He prayed to Christ. They kicked him out.

    So now we've gone from, "Don't force people to pray to your, God," to "Pray to a nameless, God."

    Where were the Christians when this was happening?

    You can have astrology clubs, but not bible studies. You can have Gay Pride, but not "Campus Crusade for Christ."

    The University Vice President at a State owned school allowed all student organizations to use the Student Affairs website. Two weeks later a ruling came down, "No Christian organizations should be listed." They didn't remove the "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Group," but they sure removed the "Baptist Student Mission." And Christians did nothing.

    When I was a child, children were a blessed event. Abortions were not something that we "accepted" as a birth control method for careless women.

    They told us, "We just want to save lives by stopping back-alley abortions. Abortions won't increase, they'll just be legislated."

    Now, even people claiming to be Christian are having them done.

    They came to us and said, "We don't want to "encourage" or "recruit" for homosexuality, we just want to stop blatant persecution." Now a gay individual is protected as a miniority class, ergo, they have more rights than a white heterosexual male.

    They came to us and said, "Censorship is wrong," and "poronography will only affect those who already seek it out." Now we have porn piped into homes via the television and the internet.

    When I was young, no one would have dared form a group that publically advocated the rights of adult men to have sex with young males, but there was a group that was actually advocating on the internet and in the courts.

    When I was young, if the press had reported that the President of the United States had taken advantage of a girl's infactuation, violtaed the laws against sexual harrassment, and violated his marriage vows with a Presidential Intern in the White House itself - the country would NOT have said, "Oh, well, men do that, its none of our business." Some people actually want to re-elect him!

    And now they are coming to us and saying, "You don't have the right to display the articles of your faith in your community buildings, even if your community is predominately Christian," and we're still going, "Oh, well, gee, that's okay. We're just giving them an inch." The mile will be that churches can't display signs, or that they are zoned out of cities.

    When I was a child, I could safely walk from my home to my grandparents home five blocks away without fear. Child predators were rare, and neighbors cared. Last night I came home to a news announcement that a twice-convicted-pedophile had been arrested on my block when he approached a young boy and tried to lure him into his truck. The boy's father saw it, got there in time, and had the man, who had knives in the truck - arrested. I live in a "good" neighborhood, people. I live in the area "everyone wants to move into." But this happened on my block! And I guarantee you, that there are groups out there saying, "there is nothing wrong with what he did." Or "If the boy went it would be consentual."

    This country is going to hell - and I mean that quite literally, and we Christians are apparently condoning it because according to the Census, we are the majority in this country.

    By the time my son is grown, I expect that he will have to hide in someone else's in the dark of night, and read the bible by candlelight in order to avoid being put into a concentration camp like citizens of China do because Christians always say, "Its just a little thing."
     

Share This Page

Loading...