spin-off from "Route to Calvinism"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Isaiah40:28, Mar 16, 2007.

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  1. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I didn't want to contribute to the derailing of the other thread, so my response is here.
    WHERE??

    "man's plans" -- no decision made here
    "BUT God determines his steps"-- steps are determined by God, not man.
    The BUT in the verse makes it clear, that God is ultimately in control of what event actually takes place.


    "plans in a man's heart"--notice there is no action taken yet, they are still "plans in the heart"
    "BUT it is God's purposes"(plans) that prevail, (actually happen).
    Again, "man's plans" versus God's purposes" only one prevails.

    God does as He pleases with people. God does it, not man and no one can say, "Hey what are doing?".
    No mention of your position that "man is making a decision"


    This is one of the most damaging verses to the non-Calvinist position.
    No one but God can speak and have something happen if God has not already determined it will happen.
    No mention of "man's decisions" here.
    Who decides when someone is born, when they die and the exact place where they love?
    God, not man.
    Man's most basic elements are determined by God.
    Birth, death, and home.
    Man has no say in any of these.

    where do the passages state that God "overrides" man's decisions?


    God's plan is carried out by man's choices.
    Christ's death as described in Acts 2:23?
    done by man at God's "set purpose and foreknowledge".
    Acts 2:28?
    "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen".
    Man's choices conforming to God's plans.
    Free choices of man?
    Yes, in that man needed no coercion by God to crucify Christ, the wickedness of their hearts caused them to do that which God had decreed would happen.

    where did you say that exactly?
    I don't think you did.

    To be honest, I'm not expecting a reply of any substance (meaning dealing with each verse).
    Non-calvinists don't like to discuss these types of passages.
    2 Peter 3:9. John 3:16 and the like are usually what they want to quibble over.
    But I'm putting a reply forth because it helps me in my understanding and perhaps it may help someone else.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
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    Just what the BB needs...more arrogance, ad hominems and the spreading of vitriol :rolleyes:
    Please tell me why anyone would want to reply to your thread with this kind of attitude, and since you seem to have it all figured out?
     
  3. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    You are mistaken.
    I'm not doing any of those things.
    The attacks against Calvinism being,"intractable" "unteachable" are numerous.
    Your own words:
    Skypair's words:
    All of these remarks are given and the passages that I have brought up on here in my short period on this board, have generated little discussion.
    They have been either ignored or swept aside with generalizations that "all of these verses show..."
    I'm genuine in my discussion. I want to know what the verses mean.
    So after taking time to write a reply looking at each passage, I acknowledged that my work may be for naught in one persepctive, no fruitful discussion of the verses actually may take place, but in another perspective, my beliefs are strengthened by my study, so it does have merit.
     
  4. webdog

    webdog
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    I know what I said and the reasons why. I just found out today that there is a calvinist here on the BB that believes you can be elect while ignoring Christ your entire life. It's obvious some "calvinists" don't know what calvinism teaches.
    If you are truly genuine, phrases like... "To be honest, I'm not expecting a reply of any substance (meaning dealing with each verse).
    Non-calvinists don't like to discuss these types of passages." don't warrant good conversation or debate.
     
    #4 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
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  5. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    So isn't is funny that you categorize a whole group of Christians by one person's beliefs and then use your insider knowledge to justify that it was a useful statement. Why didn't you qualify the statement with "some" when you wrote it?
    Or at least with, "one Calvinist I know doesn't even believe..."?
    That's your opinion. But when I end up with another thread asking for discussion of certain passages that don't lend themselves to the "free willers" view and it ends up dead, I will not be surprised.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog
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    Um...you might want to go back and actually read my post (and your own, since you did quote me verbatim). Did you miss the word "some"? I went back and bolded it for you so, no, I didn't categorize an entire group as you did.
    It's clear you are not after good dialogue or debate. Good day.
     
    #6 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
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  7. skypair

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    No decision? Do you make plans" without deciding what you will do? I mean -- I love this verse because it shows what liberty we have in Christ that we CAN make plans and decisions, still be in the will of God, and He rewards or either detours our plans for our good.

    This is the complement to "In all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths." OUR decision is to acknowledge or not acknowledge. If we acknowledge, we know He will lead!

    [/quote]"plans in a man's heart"--notice there is no action taken yet, they are still "plans in the heart"
    "BUT it is God's purposes"(plans) that prevail, (actually happen).
    Again, "man's plans" versus God's purposes" only one prevails.[/quote] Again, how do you not see a decision on man's part here??

    No, but "Hey, what are you doing" suggests that that questions comes in that it wasn't what man would have decided to do, right?

    Here's what is wrong with your reply -- God has made many promises and threats. We cannot change the outcome of either our obedience or of our disobedience. God has "laid down" in the Bible what will happen! We can still decide to disobey, can't we? God has already decided what will happen if we do, hasn't He? Unless He shows mercy upon whom He will, we're stuck!

    Oh? Your parents didn't choose to make love? You couldn't choose to commit suicide? You have never chosen where you will live? These things were "foreordained" in that God foresaw them and permitted them. They were NOT decided by God. God did NOT decide that your parents would marry one another much less the rest. He KNEW of it -- He KNEW what every gene in your parents would make you to be like.

    Well, take Pharoah, for example. What did Pharoah want to do with Israel? Was he able to override God or did God override him?

    Absolutely! God controls the consequences! Pharoah could have let the people go at Moses first request and God's will would have been done that way, too!

    "Counsel and foreknowledge" -- Yes. And He foreknew that Israel would reject Jesus too. That didn't mean it was His will nor that He made them reject Jesus. He "foreknew" it and "directed the steps," the consequences, accordingly.

    No, had known and ordained beforehand.

    Look at Judas. Do you think for one minute that the Pharisees couldn't have crucified Jesus without Judas? Of course they could! And Judas could have repented the night before and believed on Jesus if he had responded to Jesus last invitation! You are making way too much out of God controlling evil as well as good!

    I'd say you have a pretty jaundiced view of why I am here. These things need answers. I realize that. Without proper perspective, we can get our faith in trouble -- into "shipwreck" as Paul said of Hymenaeus and Alexander, 1Tim 1:19-20. And all they were doing was being preterists!! Heaven knows what he would say about a Calvinist! :laugh:

    skypair
     
  8. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    This is what you orginally wrote that I took issue with:
    Where's the "some"?

    It isn't there.
    You added that later to clarify what you alone meant.
    You wouldn't have if I hadn't called you on it.
    I'm open to fair dialogue. Hold me accountable for what generalizations I make and my hermeneutics, but don't play games and change your statements without ackowledging the change.
     
  9. MB

    MB
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    Hi Amy;
    This is a quote from your blog
    How do you know it wasn't God's plan that you be fat. What gave you the right to think for yourself as in " You have to want it " Your testimony here is true. Salvation is that way, you have to want it. It isn't just given to you. You really have to want it. You have to be willing to accept it by your own voluntary will.
    God's plans for us are never forced on us. He also has a plan for us if we reject Him . It's called hell.
    Demonstrations of men living by there own plans;
    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

    2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

    Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

    Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


    MB
     
  10. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I think you've misread the entry from my blog.
    That was a post from another person's blog.
    Those were not my words nor my life story.
     
  11. webdog

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    Reconcile this notion with sin. Do you believe God is the author of sin?
    Same question...
    Same question...
    Agreed. What does this have to do with intellect and day to day choices, though...the very choices God sets before us?

    Your theology sounds like that of the hyper's...or let me clarify "some"... on here (God is the first cause of absolutely everything including sin, or He is not sovereign)
     
    #11 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
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  12. webdog

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    Now you are being outright dishonest. In your post (#5) the word SOME is in my quoted phrase you were responding to. I did not go back and add that word into your post...impossible to do (editing your posts), and a false accusation. I went back and bolded the word from my post that you quoted. That is the second time already in your short time here you have falsely accused me. Please stop.

    BTW, do you know what calvinism teaches?
     
    #12 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
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  13. MB

    MB
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    If that wasn't your blog then why is it's link given at the bottom of your post?
    This was the link. www.americanadiangirl.blogspot.com
    MB
     
  14. webdog

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    Just for the record, here is what you replied to...
    You weren't replying to what you stated you were replying to. The above bolded qualifies this...
    That, my friend is just plain old dishonesty, and violates a BB posting rule.
     
    #14 webdog, Mar 16, 2007
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  15. donnA

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    edited,, be back in a few minutes to post again
     
    #15 donnA, Mar 16, 2007
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  16. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Wow, you guys are hard work.
    MB, I said that "that entry" is not my post, meaning I didn't write that post.
    I linked to it on my blog and posted an excerpt of what the girl was saying.
    Please, I beg you, read more carefully.
     
  17. donnA

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    From what these verses say, man might make all the plans he wants, BUT it's God whose in control of what actually happens, God's will over mans. To say man makes plans and is able to carry them out no matter what, is to argue against scripture and lower God below man's status.

    Godd post by the way
     
  18. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Did you write this?
    Yes, you did.

    After I quoted your original comment which was this:
    What am I being dishonest about?
    You changed the statement from it's original wording to clarify that "some" Calvinists don't know what Calvinism teaches" based on one person's beliefs encountered on this board.
    Words fail me, webdog.
     
  19. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    I have already addressed this. We're obviously miscommunicating. It's unfortunate. I'd rather be discussing the verses.

    Yes, why do you ask?
     
  20. webdog

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    Then lets discuss the verses. Awaiting your replies...
     
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