Spinoff from the "Wilkinson" thread...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by robycop3, Jul 21, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Since a coupla members wishta discuss 1 Tim. 6:10 and a few other issues on the 'Wilkinson' thread, I have started this thread to take up these issues, rather than bog down the "Wilkinson" thread. Let's deal with the latest stuff:

    Antenna Farmer:Robycop3 says: "Correct...and I'm waiting for someone to say it's incorrect. If anyone does, I wanna see PROOF! Not opinion, not guesswork, but *PROOF*!"

    And I am STILL awaiting that PROOF. All YOU'VE posted is opinion and guesswork, which is unacceptable. All it proves is that in your KJVO zeal, you'll defend ANYTHING about the KJV, no matter how incorrect or silly it is.


    The one claiming that the Holy Bible is wrong is Robycop3.

    Wrong. I am correctly claiming that a certain rendering in one version is incorrect. Like every other English version, the KJV is a TRANSLATION, not God's original words. It was made by men & thus is subject to human error.

    Robycop3, you are putting your man made teaching ahead of the Bible. You claim that the KJV can't be right because Robycop3 doesn't agree with it.

    Wrong again, as usual. The man-made teaching YOU are trying to get someone to believe is that the KJV is always automatically right.



    "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows."- ASV

    That verse offers NO exceptions to the kinds of evil having their root in the love of money. No exceptions. None at all! "All kinds" "all sorts" it makes no difference. None of the versions offer you even one evil that isn't some "kind" of evil.

    Your whole premise here is SO STUPID that it doesn't really merit a response. However, I don't want the other readers to think I'm avoiding it, so I'll respond.

    The phrase "a root" says in itself that there ARE other roots. And "all kinds" sez there is more than one kind. No rocket science needed to see that, but you're trying to use "Molotov Cocktail Science" here, acting as if WE don't understand elementary English.

    More than once, the GREEK has been explained by various members. But here it is again: The first word of the sentence is 'philargyria', which literally means ' love of silver'. Nest is 'est', "is". Next is 'rhizo', "root". There's NO WORD in the Greek between 'est & 'rhizo'. Now, Greek has a definite pronoun, equivalent to the English "the", but NO INDEFINITE pronoun equivalent to the English "a". Now, paul was a highly-educated man, and had he meant "the" root here, he certainly would NOT have omitted the definite peonoun. Thus. "a" is the most-correct and logical word to supply here in English between 'is' and 'root'.

    And again, plain ole COMMON SENSE sez there are many, MANY evils done for other reasons besides lova money. This is undeniable FACT that renders all of AF's arguments against the correct translation of this verse wrong.
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Antenna Farmer:I am surprised at your response here. I said only that the KJV rendered the passage correctly. I (carefully) did not say that the others were in error. That hardly qualifies as a "blanket statement". It was merely a statement of a particular fact.

    So, things that are different are still the same" ?
     
  3. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Mr. Garvey:You are right, except the ones that say "a root" of "all kinds" is redundency at "work".

    Oh, how SILLY! truth is TRUTH. If it's used redundantly, it's STILL correct. How often did GOD say "I am the LORD"? Redundant or not , was he ever wrong?

    What other kinds of roots present growth into any evil that doesn't fall under the heading of "all kinds"?

    Is there only one kinda evil?(wickedness) Is murder the same kind of evil as embezzlement? Embezzlement is always done outta lova money, while not all murders are. But both are evils.

    You're simply not making any sense! you're trying to invent an excuse on the fly, hoping to get us confused by your mucho words. You remind me at times of that woman who useta post here who said'You'll understand when ya understand'.


    The KJV is right. The other versions which read offer confusion to the mind's ability to reason.

    The only confusion here is what YOU'RE trying to create.

    "the love of money is A root..." No confusion here. The love of money is A root, one root outta more than one possible roots.

    ...of ALL KINDS of evil." Again, there is more than one kind of wickedness(evil) performed by man. That's an undeniable FACT. To say otherwise is just plain stupid. There's no reasoning needed here; the facts speak for themselves. I have presented several well-known evils that were NOT done for lova money, evils that YOU know about same as I do. Those facts alone show the KJV's rendering wrong. Scripture cannot be broken; REALITY matches the NKJV's rendering. This reality renders your arguments incorrect.


    maybe that's why roby insists the alternatives to the KJV.

    I insist cuz they're CORRECT.

    I know an element that causes all kinds of corrosion.

    "Water is the root cause of oxidation."

    "Water is a root cause of all kinds of oxidation."

    The are other root elements which cause corrosion.


    Oh, how SILLY! YOU'RE making MY argument! THANX!

    Just as you say they're other elements besides water which cause oxidation, there are other evils done for reasons besides lova money!

    And your little analogy is wrong anyeay. Water is a COMPOUND, not an element. And OXYGEN causes oxidation, not water! Water ACCELERATES oxidation of some other compounds & elements, but is is not THE cause.

    If my neighbor's pit bull comes into my yard & growls at me & I shoot it, then its owner comes into my yard raising cain & I shoot him also, have I committed an evil? Did I do it for lova money?

    GET REAL!
     
  4. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robycop3: You twist my meaning. I did not say that the other versions were wrong. I said that the KJV was right.

    I am also saying, however, that your understanding of the verse is wrong. You have explained your meaning on several occasions. Your interpretation does violence to the scriptures because you place your interpretation ahead of the clear meaning of the passage.

    Both the KJV and the modern versions disagree with your reasoning that: "And again, plain ole COMMON SENSE sez there are many, MANY evils done for other reasons besides lova money."

    I think that your basic problem is that you insist on understanding "kinds of" in a colloquial sense instead of the strict sense that it is intended in the translation. In ordinary speech it is common for folks to say "kind of" or "sort of" to indicate "almost so". That is an informal usage that has no place in a translation because it is ambiguous in meaning. The language of the major translations are "formal" in that they use the English language in a strict sense in order to convey the meaning of the original as precisely as possible.

    Your insistence on setting your viewpoint against the plain reading of the Scripture requires you to misinterpret the modern versions (as if it were informal speech) while rejecting the correct translation of the KJV.

    In short - you substitute the idiom:

    kind of, Informal. to some extent; somewhat; rather: The room was kind of dark. (From dictionary.com)

    for the correct meaning of "kinds of": which means "classes of".

    A.F.
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,404
    Likes Received:
    328
    If the KJV is right -- then the other versions are wrong with respect to the passage in question.

    How so?

    His "interpretation does violence to the Scriptures"?! Do all forms of evil spring from a desire for and love of money? You can't be serious.

    You put KJV phraselogy above the real meaning of a given passage.


    Do you object when a modern version uses words such as "kinds of"? Do you really disagree? I mean honestly -- come off it.

    To use the words "kinds of" does not in any way, shape, or form mean "kind of" or "sort of".

    You are speaking foolishly.

    By the way, the KJV (of whatever flavor you choose) has the words "kinds of" in Gen.40:17;Deut. 6:11,22:9; Jer. 15:3; Acts 10:12; James 3:7; 1 Cor. 12:4,5 and 6 among many other references.

    Your non-argument is quite silly.
     
  6. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rippon: from your response it is obvious that you haven't caught on. I didn't claim that there was any thing wrong with "kinds of". And it is your side's claim that it can read differently and still be correct. Don't blame me for following your lead.

    quote from Rippon: "To use the words "kinds of" does not in any way, shape, or form mean "kind of" or "sort of"."

    Exactly! But from his discussions on the matter it is clear that Robycop3 reads it exactly according to the informal usage I cited.

    quote from Rippon: "Do all forms of evil spring from a desire for and love of money?"

    And what does it say in your favorite version? There is no wiggle room if you take the verse at face value in the KJV, NKJV or whatever. If all "kinds of evil" spring from the love of money then "all evil" does too. (I say that without endorsing your paraphrase btw.)

    A.F.
     
  7. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    You said so.

    A.F.
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Actually, I was asking YOU, since you apparently are saying that "A root" = THE root" and ALL( Everything) = ALL KINDS OF.(Some of every sort)



    Well, at least you make a polite reply this time, but you're still incorrect. The GREEK here is 'pas', which can mean 'all, everything', or 'some of every kind', which is obviously the meaning in 1Timothy 6:10, as the lova money is obviously NOT "the" root of ALL evil.(wickedness) And just-as-obviously, there's no kind of wickedness that has never been done for lova money.

    Here, the idiom "all kinds of" means "some of every type". Recognizing this little fact will go a long way in seeing the KJV's rendering is incorrect.

     
  9. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    robycop3: "Here, the idiom "all kinds of" means "some of every type"."

    Please cite references for your definition.
     
  10. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robycop3: "The GREEK here is 'pas', which can mean 'all, everything', or 'some of every kind'"

    The translation in question is "all" not "some".
    A.F.
     
  11. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robycop3: "Well, at least you make a polite reply this time...."


    Ha! I have been impolite? Look in the mirror man.
     
  12. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robycop3: "More than once, the GREEK has been explained by various members. But here it is again: The first word of the sentence is 'philargyria', which literally means ' love of silver'. Nest is 'est', "is". Next is 'rhizo', "root". There's NO WORD in the Greek between 'est & 'rhizo'. Now, Greek has a definite pronoun, equivalent to the English "the", but NO INDEFINITE pronoun equivalent to the English "a". Now, paul was a highly-educated man, and had he meant "the" root here, he certainly would NOT have omitted the definite peonoun. Thus. "a" is the most-correct and logical word to supply here in English between 'is' and 'root'."


    You have some facts jumbled.

    ριζα γαρ παντων των κακων εστιν η φιλαργυρια ης τινες ορεγομενοι απεπλανηθησαν απο της πιστεως και εαυτους περιεπειραν οδυναις πολλαις

    As you can see the word order is not as you remember.

    You also appear to need a refresher on the use of the Greek article. Here is a link to some helpful information:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/koine/greek/lessons/eimi.html

    Perhaps you should leave arguments about the Greek to others.
    (Or should I say "Perhaps you should leave arguments about Greek to the others")?

    A.F.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Stronger Strongs, plus, a Greek businessman I know, who knows both contemporary and Koine Greek.(and is a Christian of the Eastern Orthodox denom)
     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    I believe the man to whom I spoke, who is a native of Thessaloniki, Greece, knows more about the language he grew up with than you or I, or just about anyone else who didn't grow up speaking/reading/writing Greek. he has several greek-language Bibles, including a New Testament in Koine. it is he who supplied me with mosta the info about the Greek of 1 Tim. 6:10.

    There are several other Greek readers here. Lessee if they agree with the info about Greek's lacking an indefinite article equivalent to the English "a", while having a definite article equivalent to the English "the".
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    I believe the man to whom I spoke, who is a native of Thessaloniki, Greece, knows more about the language he grew up with than you or I, or just about anyone else who didn't grow up speaking/reading/writing Greek. he has several greek-language Bibles, including a New Testament in Koine. it is he who supplied me with mosta the info about the Greek of 1 Tim. 6:10.

    There are several other Greek readers here. Lessee if they agree with the info about Greek's lacking an indefinite article equivalent to the English "a", while having a definite article equivalent to the English "the".

    However, you're getting away from the fact that the lova money is NOT *THE* roota ALL evil. REALITY proves that fact.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,573
    Likes Received:
    10
    Antenna Farmer, you know there are MANY possible correct English renderings of many Greek words/phrases. And you know that the MOST-CORRECT of these possibilities is dictated by the CONTEXT. being used at the time. thus, lova money cannot be both "a' root and "the" root in the same place in an English sentence. Same with "all" or "all kinds". It MUST be one or the other.

    REALITY shows that the lova money, while being a major root of many evils, is NOT "the" ONLY roota *ALL* evil.

    So let us not get too carried-away with POSSIBLE Greek renderings. While the KJV's rendering is possible from the Greek, REALITY proves this rendering is NOT CORRECT , while the rendering in the NKJV & most later versions IS both correct in fact and in Greek translation.
     
  17. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0


    According to some folks Koine Greek, to a modern Greek speaker, is about like Chaucer is to us. It can be read only with difficulty and study. Isn't it one of your points that language changes with time? A native Greek speaker I know (a Christian with a PhD. btw) quickly got a puzzled look on his face when he tried to read a bit of Koine Greek. He gave up after a few minutes.

    You have it partly correct. Koine Greek has an article which is somewhat like the English definite article. The Greek article is usually translated as "the". The absence of an article does not necessarily indicate that an indefinite article is called for, however. An article may be omitted from the Koine Greek when the author decides it isn't necessary. So the absence of an article does not automatically indicate that an indefinite article is called for in the translation. The translation may require a definite article, indefinite article or no article at all. The translator has to decide what is required.

    ...A.F...
     
  18. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see you claim an "easier to read version" as the means of validating any version, yet you decry my exposure of redundency?:applause:

    Ujm, roby, where did you miss "all evil" = "all kinds of evil"?

    In the sense of the use of the letter "a" you would be correct in the first mention principle as the distinguishment being that this human act is influenced by man's desire to get gain by means considered evil as "THE" root.

    Redundency is not correct, roby,ever.

    Not exactly as you'd like to claim. Battery acid is a mixture of sulfuric acid and H2O. It is a corrosive mixture. Sulfuric acid alone would be still corrosive but not causing oxidation.

    Only the elements that comprise water cause oxidation. Oxidation is not exactly corrosion in that sense due to the operative factors bring a different result. Although each is destructive to iron, one leaves nothing but fumes and the oxidation process leaves one with rust.

    The "love" of money, getting gain by another means other than true stewardship, is the sense found in the KJV. It is THE root cause! But we would not say this love is only "a" root of all kinds of the same evil that it is THE root.

    Show me where I said this?

    Water is elementary in the oxidation of anything. Other corrosive compounds may include water or may not. Oxidation is primarilly caused by water. Oxidation is corrosion, but does not mean water has to be present in all corrosives.

    The pitbull tresspassed and presented harm to your person. His owner was tresspassing and only possibly presented harm and you saw the opportunity to gain control over an otherwise harmful and acted in an evil manner only IF it is determined you acted presumptuously and he didn't truly present any danger to your person.

    What you are determined to overlook is the "love of money" represents any means of getting unlawful, unethical gain.

    This is what the KJV gives us. That is NOT what the versions you keep quoting are saying without using a redundent way of presenting things and is laughed out of the discussion.
     
  19. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    0
    And the love of money is definitely the root of all evil.
     
  20. AntennaFarmer

    AntennaFarmer
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    606
    Likes Received:
    0

    From your comment here I gather that you accept that the KJV rendering is a technically correct translation. However, you disagree with the wording on the basis of "context".


    The primary meaning of the term "context" has to do with the adjacent verses rather than our wordview or how we understand reality. In other words, we need to consider what the verse is telling us in light of the rest of the letter. That is the context that matters most. We can then ask the question: Does "all" mean everything in a universal sense? Perhaps it means "all of the particular thing(s) I am talking about" instead.

    There are some other theories that tend to negate your argument. The main alternate theory is that the passage should be taken as hyperbolic. If that is so it should be translated in the strong sense (as in the KJV) in order to be true to Paul's intentended meaning.

    I believe that idea is expressed by Philip Towner (speaking of the "a root" translation as rendered in several modern versions):


    "While the aim of this rendering is apparently to keep Paul from assigning too much blame for evildoing to greed/money, the emphatic position of the term "root" and especially the retorical needs of the discourse favour, instead, the bolder translation, "the love of money is the root of every evil." It is the strongest sense that lends the argument the force required to drive home the point that avarice produces devastating results."

    from: The Letters to Timothy and Titus by Philip H Towner, Eerdmans Publishing, 2006, p.403-404
    Preview available on Google books
    http://books.google.com/books?id=tRwFvpn1a44C&printsec=copyright&source=gbs_pub_info_s&cad=2

    There is more at the link!

    That isn't necessarily my understanding of the passage by the way. It does, however, clearly show that there is scholarly opinion that the KJV rendering is, in fact, a correct one.

    A.F.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...