Spiritual Union or Eternal life

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



    Paul divides humanity into two distinct classifications. (1) in the flesh; (2) in the Spirit.

    In the flesh refers to our natural state as we are born physically into this world with all the physical attributes that come with physical birth. All human beings come into this world "in the flesh."

    In the Spirit refers to those natural born human beings who have been supernaturally born of the Spirit or had a second birth in addition to human birth.

    Those born merely "in the flesh" cannot please God according to verse 8 and the reason they cannot please God is described in verse 7. Those who come natural born "in the flesh" are born into this world with "enmity" toward God and will not submit to the law of God. You never have to teach a child to do evil - it comes natural. What you must do is discipline them and teach them to do good and that job is never accomplished "in the flesh."

    There are only two types of human beings (1) lost versus saved (2) Children of God versus children of Satan; (3) unregenerated versus regenerate; (4) in the Spirit versus in the flesh.

    There is no third category of humanity.

    Paul says to be "in the Spirit" is one and the same to have the Holy Spirit indwelling you.

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

    Indeed, eternal life is to be in SPIRITUAL UNION with God and to be "separated from the life of God" is to be SEPARATED from the Spirit of God as eternal life is "in the Spirit" or in UNION WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. One cannot be in UNION with the Spirit of God without the Holy Spirit indwelling them permenantly as any time they are separated from the Spirit of God they are no longer in SPIRITUAL UNION with God and thus separated and without eternal life.

    Old Tesament saints were in SPIRITUAL UNION with God, they had the permenant indwelling Spirit of God and the evidence is their lives produced the fruits of the Spirit (Heb. 11:4-40).

    The Spirit came "upon" them as the Spirit came "upon" those in Acts 8:14-15 for empowerment in performing some service of God or in spiritual gifts to do the will of God.

    It is impossible to belong to God apart from the permenant indwelling Spirit of God as it is impossible to have spiritual life apart from permenant Spiritual Union with God. Any man who is without the indwelling Spirit of God regardless when he lives is "none of his" - Rom. 8:9 and is still "in the flesh."

    All the elect, the elect in the Old Testament, in the New Testament were chosen "IN HIM" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). There is NO SPIRITITUAL LIFE outside of Christ. Abraham was "in Christ" by faith (Gal. 3:17). You cannot be "in Christ" and not be indwelt by the Spirit of Christ and neither can you have eternal life apart from UNION with God and you cannot have union with God apart from SPIRITUAL UNION and you cannot have spiritual union apart from the indwelling Spirit of Christ - Rom. 8:8-9.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2012
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  2. awaken

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    Thanks for starting this thread! I have struggled with understanding the difference between the OT saints and the NT saints and their salvation for a long time.

    I was always taught that the indwelling Holy Spirit did not come until the Day of Pentecost. The scripture that this is taught from is from John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come." How were the disciples saved before the Holy Spirit came? Another verse says, He is with you and will be in you...I understand that the HS was not in them until the day of Pentecost.
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Yes, the Holy Spirit did come on the day of Pentecost distinctly different than He did previously.

    The key lies in understanding there are two different types of temples in the New Testament that the Holy Spirit resides within.

    1. The temple defined by its context in 1 Corinthians 3:16

    2. The temple defined by its context in 1 Corinthians 6:17


    The latter temple has always been indwelt by the Holy Spirit since Adam and Eve were redeemed. The former temple was not built until the personal ministry of Christ and not indwelt until Pentecost.

    The former temple is the believers singular physical human body. The latter temple is the new house of God made up of plural baptized believers - the church institution.

    The temple built by Christ in his ministry (Mt. 18:17-18) is given a commission that inherently reproduces after its own kind (Mt. 28:19-20) through its ordained ministry (I Cor. 3:5-10) so that it replicates itself in different geographical locations such as "at Corinth" or "at Ephesus" etc.

    The former temple is composed of a PLURAL "you" whereas the latter temple is a singular "you." The Holy Spirit was always with them as individuals but as new institutional church the Holy Spirit would be "in" them on the day of Pentecost as the Holy Spirit would leave the former institutional house of God (Mt. 23;37) and his departure occurred when Christ was on the cross as the veil was rent from top to bottom that separated the holy place from the holies of holy and then He took up residence in the new institutional house of God the church on the day of Pentecost.

    This was the common pattern for all new house of God in the Old Testament. Once the builder finished the house of God the Holy Spirit would come and indwell it and immerse it in the shikinah glory and fire would come down light the altar (Ex. 40; 2 Chron. 7:1-3; Acts 2:1-3).

    This new temple was made of "living stones" built up a spiritual "house" of God composed of a royal priesthood who offered up "acceptable" sacrifices unto God in public worship (1 Pet. 2:5). The promise in John 14-16 was made to water baptized believers Christ formed into the new house of God with the administrated "keys" (authority) (Mt. 18:15-18) given unto them that Christ habitually assembled with from the time of John the Baptist until his ascension (Acts 1:21-22).

    This congretational body of Christ assembled to chose and install new officers before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-21) and was assembled together in one geographical place on Pentecost (Acts 2:1) and it is this pre-pentecostal congregational body of Christ that 3000 water baptized beleivers were "added unto" in Acts 2:40-41.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2012
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  4. Yeshua1

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    the Spirit did NOT reside/dwell in all OT believers as he does today, as God forbeaded their sins due to the coming Cross, but they were NOT sealed with the Spirit on a permanent basis as NT saints today are!
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Scripture please? And do your scriptures only INFER your position or do they clearly state your position? My scriptures clearly state my position:

    Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
    .
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Nov 16, 2012
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  6. Yeshua1

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    there is NO OT reference to the Spirit residing in persons as under NT era, ALL that was recorded is thathe 'came upon/annoited" people for specific tasks/roles, such as prophets/kings/workers etc!

    that is why we have a "better/surer' covenant relationship, as we now are indwelt by God himself!
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    There are many references in the O.T. of the Spirit of Christ indwelling His people in addition to the Spirit coming "upon" FOR EQUIPPING and EMPOWERING for special service.

    That is simply not true. Hebrews refers to the Mosaic Covenant but what about BEFORE Moses? The Old/Mosaic Coveant was between Israel and God as NATION never for individuals salvation - NEVER! Never desgined to convey LIFE (Gal. 3:20-22) but only to lead to place faith in Christ.

    Your position signs all Pre-Pentecost people of God to hell. There can be no spiritual life without Spiritual Union with God.

    Abraham was "IN CHRIST" (Gal. 3:17) and you cannot be "in Christ" apart from being "chosen in him" (Eph. 1:4) and "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) by regeneration and he walked/lived by faith and was justified by faith.
     
  8. awaken

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    Are we not all created eternal beings? Don't we live forever one way or the other?
    So what determines our salvation is our faith in a Jesus Christ...before the cross faith in His coming...after the cross...looking back and having faith that He accomplished what He said He would!

    My question is how come Jesus told the disciples that the Spirit would be in them at a later time John 7:39; 14:17? If the OT saints had the Spirit within how come the disciples had to wait until Jesus ascended?
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    The terms "life" and "death" do not express existence versus non-existence but rather are two different expressions for two different types of existence. You can be "dead" but physically alive (Eph. 2:1).

    The term "death" merely means existing in a separated condition. Spiritual "death" means existing spirit, soul and body but separated from God. Physical death means existing spirit and soul but separated from your body. The second death means existing forever in gehenna in spirit, soul, and body but separated forever from God.

    In relationship to your body "life" means bodily UNION with your immaterial self (spirit/soul). In relationship to your spirit with God "life" means UNION between your spirit and God's Spirit through regeneration. In relationship to your body and regenerated spirit "life" means UNION by resurrection as a whole glorified person.

    My first post answered that question. It is the difference between the two temples or two different houses of God as described in 1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:17. The forimer (1 Cor. 3:16) by context is something built by God through his servants (1 Cor. 3:5-10) composed of a PLURAL water baptized believing YOU as a singular temple/body/house while the latter (1 Cor. 6:17) is something procreated by God that is a SINGULAR YOU and a SINGULAR temple/body/house.

    Those Scriptures you cite are by context a PLURAL "YOU" of water baptized believers that form a singular temple/house/body called "the church."

    Now, the church of Christ as an institution is called "the house of God" (1 Tim. 3:15) wherein qualified officers administer the gospel ordinances (1 Tim. 3:1-13).

    Those to whom Jesus spoke and spoke about were a plural you of water baptized believers whom Christ had been habitually assemblying together with from the baptism of John until his ascension (Acts 1;21-22). They had been given the "keys" of the kingdom (Mt. 16:18-19; 18:15-18; 28:19-20) or authority to make disciples, ordain leadership, teach to observe all things, administer discipline within the professing kingdom of God on earth. This authority was formerly found in the Jewish institutional house of God (Mt. 21:43; 23:2-39; etc.).

    Christ was establishing a new institutional house of God within the professing Kingdom but this house of God would be the administrative agent of a new covenant whereas the former house of God was the administrative agent of the old covenant. This administrative agent would be commissioned to the gentile world whereas the former was "JEWISH" in nature. This administrative agent was the new "house of God" which was baptized in and indwelt by the Spirit of God on the day of Pentecost exactly as all former new houses of God were immersed in and indwelt by the Holy Spirit previously (Exodus 40:35; 2 Chron. 7:1-3).

    As did the former houses of God they were built and existed PRIOR TO their baptism in and indwelling by the Spirit of God. The church was built and existed from the baptism of John till the ascension of Christ (Acts 1:21-22; Mt. 18:15-17) and Christ as the head of the church assembled with it all that time and it was still regularly assembling after the asension in Acts 1 and was assembled in one place in unity in Acts 2:1 and it was that "church" which was "added unto" in Acts 2:40 and 47.
    Those scr
     
  10. awaken

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    The Spirit was not in the OT saints ...He was in the Temple they built..Holy of Holies!
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    That is simply not true. Hebrews refers to the Mosaic Covenant but what about BEFORE Moses? The Old/Mosaic Coveant was between Israel and God as NATION never for individuals salvation - NEVER! Never desgined to convey LIFE (Gal. 3:20-22) but only to lead to place faith in Christ.

    Your position signs all Pre-Pentecost people of God to hell. There can be no spiritual life without Spiritual Union with God.


    Abraham was "IN CHRIST" (Gal. 3:17) and you cannot be "in Christ" apart from being "chosen in him" (Eph. 1:4) and "created in Christ" (Eph. 2:10) by regeneration and he walked/lived by faith and was justified by faith.[/QUOTE]


    Abraham was saved by basis of the messiah to come, but the OT believers did NOT have same relationship to Christ as we do now, as he had not come yet, and the church was not yet established by the coming of the holy Spirit!

    Asjesus said, John was GREATEST under Old Covenant, but lewast in new Covenant would be greater than him, due to being under vastly superior Covenant relationship!
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    This post is all messed up because you confuse what I wrote with what you wrote. Repost it where my words are NOT confused with yours.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    You simply repeat over and over again the same position WITHOUT SCRIPTURE and WITHOUT any contextual based refutation of the scriptures I present (Rom. 8:7-9). Do you think that a repetitive mantra without Biblical support is a good response?

    Your position assigns all pre-Pentecost children of God to be children of Satan as all unrengerated human beings are by nature children of wrath, children of Satan apart from new birth and new birth is impossible apart from the Holy Spirit - Jn. 3:3,5 (this text is pre-cross, pre-Pentecost and Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding it).

    Your position assins all pre-cross children of God to hell as there can be no such thing as eternal life/spiritual life apart from SPIRITUAL UNION with God! Not possible.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2012
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  14. The Biblicist

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    Spiritual death is by definition SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. Spiritual life is by definition the opposite or SPIRITUAL UNION WITH GOD. Ephesians 4:18 spells out this SPIRITUAL SEPARATION thus seperation from THE LIFE of God due to ignorance of Christ whereas John 17:3 (pre-cross statement) spells out what ETERNAL LIFE is in contrast to Eph. 4:18 - READ IT - THINK ABOUT IT - DIGEST IT - before you respond with an empty mantra.

    Man is the same before and after the cross. He has the same problem and there is but ONE solution to that problem before (Jn. 14:6) or after (Acts 4:12) the cross.

    Your dispensationalism and view of the baptism in the Spirit is what distorts your ability to objectively interpret scriptures.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    QUESTION: Can any human being have "eternal life" OUTSIDE OF SPIRITUAL UNION WITH GOD?

    If so, the salvation can be obtained OUTSIDE of being "in Christ" which is SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ.

    QUESTION: Are there any human beings saved who were not chosen "IN HIM" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4)? Before you answer that you better consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which demands election is "TO" salvation and not because of salvation or for Post-cross people only.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Romans 8:9 says "IF ANY MAN" but you say "IF any POST-CROSS man"! Your interpetation does not fit the contextual demands which EXCEED any dispensation of men but includes the very nature of ALL HUMANS regardless of when they lived as you cannot restrict "in the flesh" to post-cross people as though pre-cross people were exempt from that contextually described problem (vv. 7-8).
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Consider Abraham, pre-mosaic covenant! Was there a time when Abraham was not "in the flesh" as defined by Paul in Romans 8:7-8?

    If so, was Abraham exempt from the consequences of the fall in Adam?

    If not, then there was a time Abraham was "in the flesh" as defined by Paul!

    If he was "in the flesh" as defined by Paul then Paul says such "CANNOT PLEASE GOD" and yet Abraham did please God.

    If he was "in the flesh" as defined by Paul then Abraham is "none of his" as Paul says those "in the flesh" are not God's people.

    If to please God, and to be His requires to be "in the Spirit" than the Holy Spirit did indwell Abraham just as he does you and me and that is precisely why Paul said Abraham is the role model for ALL THAT BELIEVE.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    We BOTH agree that God saved by same basis/way in both old/new covenants, its just that those in the new were in the body of Christ, Church, NOT OT believers, and that we under the new have a better situation, as we have had sins forever forgiven, and in a personal relationship with God via the lord Jesus/Holy Spirit abiding within us on a permanent basis!
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    You are completely avoiding the questions and the langauge used by Paul. However, that is keeping with your general GENERIC responses to this issue. Please address each question and after that then please answer how anyone at any time can be "IN CHRIST" but yet not in spiritual union with Christ?
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2012
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  20. The Biblicist

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    That is another distinction between the nature of the OT temple versus the NT temple indwelt on Pentecost. However, both are equally "the house of God" but the former is a type of the latter which is an assembly of spiritual stones (1 Pet. 2:5). Both are equally God's PUBLIC house of worship where the ministry and ordinances are visibly administrated (1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Cor. 3:4-10).

    I would kindly emphasize the context of the house of God in 1 Timothy 3:15 and 1 Cor. 3:16 is the kind where a properly qualified ministry serves (1 Tim. 3:1-11; 1 Cor. 3:4-10) and not some invisible universally spread out membership over heaven and earth.
     

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