Spiritual Worship

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by tinytim, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. tinytim

    tinytim
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    Aaron asked in the Casting Crowns' Thread this question....

    What are the Scriptural criteria for spiritual worship?

    So to help him out, I am starting this thread...

    If anyone wants to discuss this question with him, please do so.
     
  2. Sopranette

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    It praises God. It expresses a universal human emotion or condition. It moves people in a positive spiritual direction. At least, those would be the three main ones for me. It helps significantly, too, if I feel a personal connection to it.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  3. gekko

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    mmm. isn't "spiritual worship" a little redundant?

    worship is spiritual from the beginning no matter what way you look at it.
     
  4. Aaron

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    Not according to the Scriptures. There is false and carnal worship.
     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    I've done a personal topical study of worship in the last few months and I see seven things in the bible that would be negative factors involving worship.



    1. What prevents genuine worship?
    ▪ Vain traditions of men (Matt. 15:9, Mark 7:7)
    ▪ Insincere repentance and/or making excuses for sin (1 Sam. 15:20-25)
    ▪ Spiritual bondage (Ex. 20:4-5)
    ▪ Idolatry (Ex. 32:8)
    ▪ Putting God on the “back burner” (Deut. 8:19)
    ▪ Leaving your heart unguarded (Deut. 11:16)
    ▪ Ignoring God’s commands (Deut. 30:17-18)

    And here's a great quote -



    “Worship is our response to God. In other words, we don’t initiate worship; God does. He reveals; we respond. He discloses; we respond. He unveils; we respond. He chooses to show us how amazing he is; we say, “God, You’re Amazing!”. Our whole relationship with God works the same way. He loves; we love in return. He calls; we answer. He leads; we follow.”

    Lou Giglio – The Air I Breathe





     
  6. Dale McNamee

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    Dear Scarlett O,

    Great response ! BRAVO ! BRAVO ! :thumbs: :thumbs: :applause:

    In Christ,

    Dale
     
  7. Aaron

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    Don't forget Christ's words on the matter where He articulate the two main criteria of true worship, its object [the Father] and its form [in truth and spirit]. Paul also elborated somewhat on the form of true worship in his instructions to the Corinthians. You don't want to forget that either.​







    Charismatic clap-trap. This basically boils all of the Christian life down into an ecstatic experience.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    Oh, I didn't forget about John 4:24. :saint: That verse was one of the main focuses of the bible study that I wrote for a ladie's conference after my personal and topical study.

    I was just responding to your mentioning of "false and carnal worship." The verses that I gave you were the ones that I found that pertained to things that contribute to false worship.
     
  9. annsni

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    Ummm - Have you read your Bible recently?

    1 John 4:19 - "We love because he first loved us."

    EVERY response we have to God is because of what HE did for us first. It's not an "ecstatic experience" but our natural response to God. What did Paul do when Christ revealed Himself to him? He fell on the ground because he couldn't even stand in God's presence. Would you call THAT an "ecstatic experience"? It might be but that doesn't make it wrong. If God does not stir your heart in worship by His mighty deeds, then I feel sorry for you. I sat down at the beach the other day just watching the birds - the movement of the water - the clouds in the sky - the colorful leaves on the trees - and just was filled with praise and worship of our Lord. How mighty He is! I worship not only during church in singing (although I LOVE to do that too), but in seeing God's creation, in seeing Him work through and in others, in my children and their simple prayers, etc.

    To me, "spiritual worship" is not just me praising God with my mouth and voice but with my heart and soul. When I ascribe to Him what He is worthy to receive - all of me.
     
  10. Aaron

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    That's right.

    There are spiritual responses, and there are carnal responses.

    Not every response is an ecstatic response, that's true. In fact, the central acts of our worship, prayer, fasting and the giving of alms, are neither ecstatic nor a type of stimulus/response activity. They are intelligent and ordered obedience to His commandments. They are not to be performed because of some feeling in our bosoms which we mistake for the Spirit and to which we respond in any way that we choose.

    These acts of worship are deep and wholly spiritual.

    No, not at all, but note that there was no music.

    You assume a lot.

    But, are you saying here that spiritual worship is praising God for His mighty deeds?

    It is good to give thanks. How mighty He is! I worship not only during church in singing (although I LOVE to do that too), but in seeing God's creation, in seeing Him work through and in others, in my children and their simple prayers, etc.

    To me, "spiritual worship" is not just me praising God with my mouth and voice but with my heart and soul. When I ascribe to Him what He is worthy to receive - all of me.[/quote]So, spiritual worship is a feeling?
     
  11. Aaron

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    You listed ignoring God's commandments. What about ignorance of God's commandments?
     
  12. Scarlett O.

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    Alright, let's talk about that command.

    Jesus did say that God is a Spirit and those that worship Him should do so in spirit and in truth.

    What does that mean to you personally? And what commands pertaining to worship in particular do you think Christians are ignorant of?
     
  13. DHK

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    I am not sure what to make of this quote, only that it doesn't sound Scriptural.
    It could be ultra-Calvinistic. Man cannot do anything without God initiating it first. Is that what he is saying? If so I don't believe that. I don't believe that the free will of man is completely eliminated from worship, or that God must initatiate worship. I don't find that in the Scriptures either.

    But perhaps he is focusing of the emotions, and thus it is Charismatic wishy-washy, emotionalism. One is overcome by their emotions when they "feel" what they determine what is the "presence" of God. There is always this feeling, undefinable, that one responds to. They call it God but their lives at the same time are often very carnal. Response to an emotion doesn't mean response to God.

    There yet may be a couple of other interpretations of what he wrote; I am not sure. It doesn't sound Biblical to me, and here it the reason why:
    In one's devotions, wherein we find true worship, it takes discipline, self-discipline. It is hard and difficult, one of the most difficult tasks that the Christian will face throughout his life. Why? Because Satan is going to fight you every step of the way, putting obstacles in your way trying to keep you from reading that Bible and spending time in prayer. That is worship. Jesus taught us to spend time alone with God. Worship is important; worshiping God alone is most important, and that takes discipline. It is not a response to God; it is a response to one's own will and the discipline of one's mind to set aside the time to spend in the Word and in Prayer which is worship. Thus the quote is not Biblical. It is either a Charismatic appeal to the emotions, or a drivelling Calvinistic response stating that nothing can be done without God doing it first for you.
     
  14. Scarlett O.

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    I found it to be consistent with the scriptures that I read about what the purpose of worship is and what prompted worship in the bible.

    1. What is biblical worship?
    ▪ Something intended for only God, Himself. (Ex. 34:14, Ps. 81:9, Matt. 4:10, Luke 4:8)
    ▪ Something due Jesus Christ because He is God’s Son. ((Matt. 14:33)
    ▪Humanity meeting God where HE is. (Matt. 2:2, Matt. 9:18)
    2. What prompted worship in the bible?
    ▪ A response to God acting first. (Ex. 4:31, Ex. 12:27, Ex. 24:1, Jud. 7:15, John 4:23)
    ▪ The fear of God (Ps.5:7, Ps. 96:9)
    ▪ Personal belief in God. (John 9:38)
    ▪ Gratitude to God (Gen. 24:26, Gen. 24:48, Gen. 24:52)
    ▪ God’s Presence (Ex. 33:10, Ex. 34:5-8)
    ▪ His Holiness (Ps. 99:5)

    I am not a Calvinist and I do not believe in emotionalism. And I have no trouble with the quote. Here's another quote about worship and emotions that I included in the study.

    "God, Himself, must be the focus of our worship, not our feelings about Him." (author unknown)
     
  15. DHK

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    This is not a true statement.
    When I worship God, I set aside aside the time to do so, and I initiate it. It is not some kind of Charismatic emotonal response to a feeling as the statement is implying, unless it implies some form of Calvinism. Either way, I am the one that initiates the worship. Even in church, who is the one who leads the songs? Does he walk to the pulpit on his own accord or does God put him there? Does he choose the hyms himself? Do the people open their mouths of their own will and use their own vocal chords? Are they forced to sing? Are the some that when they "feel like it" don't sing? No one is forced to do anything. Worship is initiated by man, not God.
     
  16. Scarlett O.

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    I agree that worship is not forced. God doesn't force anyone to worship Him.

    Perhaps you and I are getting tangled up in each other's semantics.

    When I say that God "initiates" worship, I am saying that He calls His people to worship or that worship is a response to some attribute of God. The people do not have to respond.

    Just look at some of these scripture passages and see how God acts first and people chose to respond to Him in worship for various reasons.

    2. What prompted worship in the bible?
    ▪ A response to God acting first. (Ex. 4:31, Ex. 12:27, Ex. 24:1, Jud. 7:15, John 4:23)
    ▪ The fear of God (Ps.5:7, Ps. 96:9)
    ▪ Personal belief in God. (John 9:38)
    ▪ Gratitude to God (Gen. 24:26, Gen. 24:48, Gen. 24:52)
    ▪ God’s Presence (Ex. 33:10, Ex. 34:5-8)
    ▪ His Holiness (Ps. 99:5)
     
  17. DHK

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    What you are saying is not what this man is saying:

    “Worship is our response to God. In other words, we don’t initiate worship; God does. He reveals; we respond. He discloses; we respond. He unveils; we respond. He chooses to show us how amazing he is; we say, “God, You’re Amazing!”. Our whole relationship with God works the same way. He loves; we love in return. He calls; we answer. He leads; we follow.”

    Notice how the author of the quote has put God as the initiator of every act. That isn't true. Worship is not a response to every act of God. Worship is often (and more often than not) initianted entirely by the believer without God's prompting whatsoever. This author is saying the opposite.
    I don't deny that worship can be the response to something that God has done in one's life, or what God has done in creation, or to anything that God has done. I am not denying that. But worship is not exclusive to that.

    Mark 1:35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.
    --We are to follow the example of Jesus.
    Jesus, on his own accord, set out at an appointed time, early in the morning and departed into a solitary place and there he prayed to His Father. This took discipline. It was his choice, as man on earth to so discipline himself to pray.

    More teaching:
    Matthew 6:6-7 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
    --You need to enter into your own room, shut your door, and make the decision to pray to your Father. That is worship, and it is a decision you make that is not a response to something that God has done first. It is discipline and often hard work to keep up on a regular basis. It is completely opposite of what the author of the quote is saying. And then Jesus gives some traps not to fall into, things that the unsaved, the Pharisees do.

     
  18. annsni

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    So what I'm reading here is that discipline is worship. WORKING for something is worship. That sounds very carnal to me. Extremely. That does not involve my spiritual side but my carnal mind. Anyone can do that - a believer or unbeliever. Only a believer can worship the Lord because it is out of a changed renewed heart that one can worship. Man in himself and in his sinfulness CANNOT worship God - but he CAN read his Bible, he can "pray", he can go in his prayer closet. But that is not true worship. True worship would be the faith of Abraham willing to sacrifice Isaac because he KNEW that God was Someone who was good, just and faithful. It was not his action but his heart that showed his faith. I can do everything "right" but that does not mean I worship God in spirit and truth. Worship DOES include the heart - and you cannot say that if it's an emotion that it's not worship. What is God looking for - obedience just because of obedience or obedience that comes from a heart that is turned to Him??? God is spirit - and He wants us to worship Him in spirit and in truth. That's not only action because our spirits can't "act" but they CAN feel and reverence the Lord.
     
  19. DHK

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    That is not what I said. Read more carefully.
    Worship is discipline; not the other way around.
    It took discipline and effort for Abraham to take Isaac, the wood, the fire, and take that long journey, climb that mountain, tie Isaac up after building the altar, and then begin to sacrifice him before he was stopped by the Lord. That obedience and act of worship was work. Please don't say there was no effort involved there. There was worship, but it sure took a lot of effort in order to come to the place of worship. Worship takes discipline. Thanks for the example.

    It takes discipline in ones life to set aside a regular time of "worship" or devotions and keep to that every day without exception. It is not easy to fight the wiles of the devil. Anyone who claims that it is only deceives themselves, and believes (unwittingly) that they are stronger than Christ was in his humanity. Christ's temptation in the wilderness was no walk in the park. After those 40 days, the struggle with Satan was intense enough that an angel came and ministered unto him afterward. Why do you take life's battle with Satan so lightly. It is work and discipline to fight against that which Satan does not want you to do.

    Buddhists have much discipline. Discipline is not worship. And I never said it was. Don't put words in my mouth, or claim that I said something that I didn't.

    Worship is discipline however. It takes discipline to worship God on a regular basis.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    If God had not given us revelation, you would have nothing to worship God for. So God does initiate worship by his revelation. The problem with a lot of "worship" is that it has no conception of who God actually is. It ignores his revelation and focuses on emotion.
     

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