Standards

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. Dr. Bob

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    There ARE biblical standards of "separation" form the world. But sadly, many of the standards of today are NOT biblical but man-made (and thus pharisaic or legalistic).

    Can we come up with some BIBLE standards of separation on which most (we will never ALL) agree?
     
  2. Deacon

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    In matters of faith, Unity (Ephesians 4:4-6)

    In matters of opinion, Liberty (Romans 14:1,4,12)

    In all things, Love (I Corinthians 13:2)

    Rob
     
  3. GrannyGumbo

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    Yes, I have many standards; no, I do not believe by keeping them is my ticket to Heaven, and no, I'm not a Pharisee.
     
  4. 4His_glory

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    The most obvious one to me is the Gospel:

    "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have recieved, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:9

    If one comprosmise any part of the Gosple, that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, he is a heretic and worthy of separation. Obviously many have understood this truth throughout the ages, and many have paid for upholding it with their lives.
     
  5. Joman

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    Dr. Bob, when you said "Biblical standards" are you referring to EXPLICIT standards that are on the bible?

    A standard that is not explicit on the bible is not biblical?
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    I think we need to guard ourselves and those we teach against the idea that because somethign is not explicitly stated in Scripture that it is an unbiblical standard. This "show it to me in Scripture" routine sounds pious, but doesn't always work. God expects us to the wisdom he gives us to make wise choices.
     
  7. av1611jim

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    AMEN Pastor Larry. Too often the mantra "Show me Scripture" is a front for "If it isn't stated exactly 'Thou shalt/shalt not...' then it isn't Biblical". And that kind of mindset will often lead one into disobedience.
    Just my take on the cureent trends of christendom as I see it today.
    I'll start the "war" with this post.
    Ro 12:1
    ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    Ro 12:2
    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    In this one simple passage we have the parameters of any standard one should adopt.
    1) It should preserve your body as being free from pollutants, i.e. booze, tobacco, excess weight, tattoos, needless piercings, etc.
    2)Sacrifice is the key. If it doesn't "hurt" when you give it up, it is not a scrifice. For some this would include but not limited to, tv, dance, certain music choices, certain entertainments, etc.
    3)Conformity to the world is often open to interpretation, but in this context it has to do with your "mind-set". One must be careful not to adopt the philosophies of the world. This is best illustrated by the current pop-psycology craze in the church. Many in the church have adopted psycological philosophies in counseling which are diametrically opposed to Biblical truths, and this has caused a tremendous fall-out with Biblical truth. Therefore, our mind must be transformed by the Bible, rather than marrying the Biblical truths with worldly fallacies.
    4) In everything we do we ought to preclude it with this test. Is it God's good, acceptable, perfect will?
    5) Does it lead to holiness? Biblical holiness is seperation for the use of God. Is this particular activity or attitude useful to God?

    Just my offering on Biblical standards. In everything we do, it ought to give God the glory. Does my behavior (any behavior) give God glory?

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  8. go2church

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    Whenever I hear the word "standards" I run! Usually, it is a hidden way of describing out and out legalism. I am free in Christ and want nothing to do with someones elses "standards".
     
  9. superdave

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    Having read many of brother Jim's 1000 posts, I know that we would not agree in many cases when putting his philosophy on standards into real world applications, but I like it. It is exactly how I evaluate my actions.

    On top of that also, we spoke about this yesterday in my Adult Bible Fellowship class. God does call us to have discernment, and if it were not required, he would have had to state everything as a thou shalt/thou shalt not. We have to really understand not only what the author's intent was, or what principle was being conveyed (since the individual application is many times not applicable) and also, be very in tune to what our behavior indicates in our current culture and context. Too many times, those who set up standards too dogmatically are inflexible and unable to adapt to changes in culture in order to maintain a proper balance of what is appropriate and what has decidedly unchristian connotation. And those who rest too heavily on the crutch of liberty attempt to use ignorance or grace as an excuse to sin. Paul would say "may it not be so" to either extreme.

    In answer to the question about what are "Biblical" standards, I would say that anything clearly commanded, or anything derived from clear applicable principles can be considered Biblical standards, the rest is just man's opinion, not necessarily a bad idea, but not to be spoken with the authority of the Word. I know my pastor's opinions on many issues that he will not dogmatically state from Scripture, that doesn't mean he doesn't care about those areas of behaviour, but he is very careful to clearly indicate when he is giving his opinion.

    I know the interpretation may be less than certain on this passage, but a related text that came up in my men's Bible study last thursday was I Cor. 4:6-7 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
    For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    For standards to be biblical, they must be "black/white" in the Bible - like thou shalt not. . . - of built upon a clear and unrefutable biblical principle.

    Example: Clothes my daughter wears. NO verse in the Bible will say "thou shalt not wear xyz" (except in cross-dressing, wearing men's armor, etc). But the Bible DOES give a clear principle of modest apparel.

    So no low cut, tight fitting, skin showing, "sexy", immodest clothes would be a VALID standard.

    No pointed shoes, no denim jeans, no dresses without wearing hose, no jewelry, no short sleeves, no coulottes without a flap front and back, etc, would be INVALID man-made rules and false standards that a person may CHOOSE to follow (nothing wrong with that) but is NOT a mark of spirituality or godliness or the like.

    BTW, the items in this second list were ALL policies in a Christian school with the single verse on "modest apparel" given as support. Ugh.
     
  11. superdave

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    Been there, done that, wasn't allowed to wear the T-shirt
     
  12. Greg Linscott

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    Heh heh...
     
  13. av1611jim

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    Much as I hate to admit it...Dr. B is right in this case. Too often in IFB churches (as well as other churches) what is put forth as "standards" is nothing more than a certain pastor's interpretation and application of "modesty".
    Because of this, there seems to be the natural human reaction of recoiling from such extremes and completely going off the deep end in the other direction. My brethren this ought not to be so. Though we do have liberty in Christ, it is not license and we ought to apply the biblical injuction to be a "peculiar people" in such a way that our "standards" do indeed bring Glory and Honor to Him rather than derision.
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Jim and I agree? Then something must be terribly wrong with the premise!!

    My pastor, a leader of conservative historic ifb, never mentioned the "side" issues that seem so dominant in ifbX circles today. Never heard "slacks" or "movies" or "tobacco" or "music" mentioned.

    But heard a lot on holiness and allowing God's grace to work through me.
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    To play the devil's advocate, everything in your definition, with the exception of part of one word, is not in the Bible, which means it violates your own standard. ("Modest" is in the bible). The standard in your next paragraph are, to some, what your "valid standards" look like. I agree with what you have said here, but the problem is what is actually looks like. What is immodest to some (i.e., culottes without flaps) is modest to another. The "skin showing" plank of your definition leads one IFB church to say that skirts had to be below the midcalf so as not to show leg. And how do we measure low cut and skin tight? I heard one pastor (of a large emergent church) tell the ladies in teh congregation that their clothes had a hem line and a neckline and they were not the same thing. It was very funny ... and got the point across as well.

    I agree with your statement and abhor those who have drawn the line in a place I disagree with. I think if we preach more about the holiness of God and loving God with all of our heart, a lot of these things take care of themselves. But at some point, I think we do need to put some legs on teh text and show how it walks in real life. Some women just have no concept of their dress and modesty. We need to teach them.
     
  16. RTG

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    Would any of you men wear a tank top to worship services on the Lords day?Or your very best T-shirt.Is a suit a standard?ICor,chapt8 comes to mind.What is it that makes our sunday best our best.Is it maybe a personal standard?Have we all lined up with a standard to prevent our brothers from stumbling,at the same time imposing a standard on the person who may just be visiting our church?
     
  17. Scott J

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    Of course.

    If I had nothing else...

    Or if wearing something better would create seperation between other members and me. I would have to find it again but the exhortation to women to dress modestly has more to do with overdressing than underdressing. It seems that some were putting on airs in the church to draw attention. This created class division contrary to the example of having all things common.

    If someone has the ability to "show off" in church then perhaps instead of buying a new suit they should instead buy jeans and polo shirts for someone who can't afford either.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    To play the devil's advocate, everything in your definition, with the exception of part of one word, is not in the Bible, which means it violates your own standard. ("Modest" is in the bible). </font>[/QUOTE]Huh? The example of valid standard is "modest" so I judge low cut, etc etc as IMMODEST. That is a standard based on either black/white (not in this case, since they wore robes) or clear biblical teaching (obvious what is "modest" and "not fleshly").

    I know you're playing the devil's advocate, but I'm a slow learner here.
     
  19. Dr. Bob

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    I word a very nice flannel shirt and dockers Sunday. I was dressed the way everyone was dressed. And I am the pastor.

    If I NEVER wear a tie again, it will be too soon. Man's fashion standards are an irritant to my flesh! [​IMG]
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    You began by saying that a valid standard "black/white" in the Bible - like thou shalt not. . . - of built upon a clear and unrefutable biblical principle. I was pointing out that the Bible doesn't define modest as "no low cut, tight fitting, skin showing, "sexy" immodest clothes." Your very standard involved the application of the principle to include low cut (which is obviously going to have differing standards), tight fitting (again, who decides), skin showing (arms? neck? what?) "sexy" (for which person looking?). In other words, your own standards have lots of room for play in them. The standards you that later decry as man made legalistic standards are simply the application of your own. All of those things (as far as I remember without looking back) meet the requirements you give.

    My point is that it is not as simple as just saying "the Bible clearly says it."
     

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