Statehood Issues

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Dr. Bob, Dec 6, 2003.

?

Should NEW COLUMBIA (Washington DC) be admitted as a State?

  1. Yes

    80.0%
  2. No

    12.0%
  3. Uncertain

    8.0%
  4. Could care less

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Large groups are debating potential statehood for the federal district and for Puerto Rico. BOTH seem very foreign to me, with a large majority of minority groups.

    What's your thinking?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Answers tomorrow. Still time for others to join in, please!
     
  3. Daisy

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    What answers? The questions called for opinion more than any facts.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Man, you're RIGHT Daisy.

    Can you say, "Duh"??? :eek: [​IMG] :eek:
     
  5. Daisy

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    I say that a lot. And, "D'oh!" even more.

    The thing about Puerto Rico is that so far they have voted down statehood, haven't they? What is their designation now - territory, protectorate? I do know that their citizens are our citizens, but not vice versa.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Estado Libre Associado de Puerto Rico (Commonwealth of Puerto Rico)

    3.8 million, with another 3.8 million living in the USA!

    I can sure see why they DON'T want to become the 52nd state!

    They have a congressman
    They have full US court system
    They have full welfare system
    They are self-governing (like a US State)

    THEY PAY NO TAXES!

    All the benefits, none of the disadvantages. And they can continue to speak Spanish behind the back of the American tourists (like me) who visit there and spend our heavily-taxed money!

    I'm not a fan . . .
     
  7. Matt Black

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    Hey, I'm not a US citizen let alone a citizen of the state concerned, but here's my $0.02 anyway (hasn't stopped me before!) ;) :rather than California leave the Union, there is an argument for splitting it into North and South California, originating in part at least from Californians; indeed some Californians would go further and want three States - 'Logland', 'Fogland' and 'Smogland' :D .

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Funny. But with the choices that state's populace made - two most LIBERAL senators in the US and another movie star governor!! - many hope for a good earthquake that will allow some dessert in Nevada to become BEACHFRONT PROPERTY!

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Debby in Philly

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    Some folks across the river from me think there should be a North Jersey and a South Jersey. The two areas are informally referred to that way anyhow, and they tell me that the two don't have a lot in common. The feeling is that Trenton always sides with the needs of the north. Of course, I can't really say, because the only secesionist movement near me is the far northeast part of the city wanting to secede from the rest of Philadelphia.
     
  10. Jude

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    In my home state of Nebraska, I know that there were some folks in the panhandle who wanted to join Wyoming!
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    True. The high arid plains and sandhills of Western Nebraska are much more in tune (AND much closer) to Cheyenne than to Lincoln.

    We want to tear down the border totally and make one state.

    That way Nebraska could actually have some beautiful scenery, and Wyoming might win a football game!

    [​IMG]
     
  12. The Galatian

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    Actually, Bob, the reverse is happening. North America is moving to the northwest, and California is slowly accreting more and more chunks of land. It's like a geological jigsaw puzzle, which is why it shakes around so much.
     
  13. ChurchBoy

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    EXCUSE ME!! Only people who actually live in California have the right to "trash" California! :D We Califorinians don't go around talking about Nebraska, or Wyoming, or Alambama, do we?

    I've heard this before, about three mini-Californias. It's usually just talk.

    I have some good friends who live in Puerto Rico. The have no interest in Puero Rico becoming a state. Most of the Puerto Ricans do not see themselves as "Americans", but Puerto Ricans. Most of them would like to be an independent country...I was suprised by their views when I spoke to them.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

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    Deal. No more trash talking about California IF we don't say bad things about Wyoming.

    I'll be back. [​IMG]
     
  15. superdave

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    The U.P. IS northern Wisconsin, just colder, If they didn't post a sign you couldn't tell the difference. There has been talk about it becoming officially part of WI, but I don't think that will happen, it seems to work just fine the way it is.

    There are more Packer fans in the the UP than Lions fans, of course there are probably more Packer fans down here in the Metro area than Lions fans too. Doesn't take much.
     
  16. superdave

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    I like the NYC idea, actually every major city should just become their own state, that way those who don't want to have to donate tax money to the cities shouldn't The county where I am in pays tons of money in taxes that never come back into the county. Like millions a year. It may be the richest per capita county in the US, but still.
     
  17. ChurchBoy

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    Dr. Bob Griffin,

    I've seen pictures of Wyoming. It is a very beatiful state. I definitely would like to visit soon. Any advice on places to see and things to do?
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    If I were visiting the state for, say, a week's vacation, these would be the places that are MUST see (and NOT see):

    AVOID:</font>
    • Avoid the entire I-80 corridor. Follows the Union Pacific across flat, barren, worthless land that is devoid of scenery or beauty.</font>
    • Avoid the Northeast, except to go through the Black Hills (95% in South Dakota)(see places to visit)</font>
    VISIT:</font>
    • Oregon Trail. Follow the North Platte west into Wyoming like the immigrants. Register cliff, trail ruts near Guernsy, then Ft Laramie. Keep heading west, now on I-25, to Casper and</font>
    • Trails Museum. Brand new huge museum explaining it all. And take a backroad tour along the actual trail to Independence Rock (you should climb it), Devils Gate and South Pass. Then west thru Lander (Sinks canyon is kewl - river flows then disappears into the ground and comes up a mile away!) and over Togwatee Pass into the high country.</font>
    • Grand Teton Park. Most spectacular mountains in North America. Kid you not. And one fee for both parks. Walk around Jackson, elk refuge, Jenny lake trails. Then north to</font>
    • Yellowstone Park. Go in for the entire day. The ride up from Jackson (and down from Cody if coming in the other way) is breathtaking and the Park pristine. Do the loop to the falls, Old Faithful, Lake, etc. If you want, get a less expensive motel in West Yellowstone MT or Gardiner and take another day.</font>
    • Cody. Great museum (actually 5 linked together). Rodeo every night. Rafting on the Shoshone River. Then an hour southeast to</font>
    • Thermopolis, with the largest (volume) hot springs in the world. Dinosaur museum if you'd like a Raptor claw fossil! All day swimming for a few bucks, like a heated water slide</font>
    • Big Horn Mountains. I'd recommend going up Shell Canyon and cross over and come down north of Sheridan (and just a few miles across the Montana border is Little Bighorn). Actually from Thermop it is closer to take Powder River Pass and end at Buffalo where you hit I-90 east. Then 100 miles of desolate rangeland and badlands to</font>
    • Devil's Tower near Sundance. Absolutely awesome to climb (hey, I'm into hard rock!) or just to visit and walk around.</font>
    Entice you any? It is magical. And not "touristy" (like the Black Hills). The beauty of these places and the low population here makes it a great vacation.
     
  19. Anthro

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    Very intelligent topic and a poll indicating considerable thought, Bob.

    As a resident and one with professional experience in one of the U.S. Protectorates in Micronesia with a similar status a PR, I have some expertise in these areas.

    You say that PR residents have "all the benefits, [and] none of the disadvantages," and cite as an example that PR residents do not pay taxes. While this is true as regards FEDERAL taxes, the picture is actually much more complex, but since it is late I will just sketch this and a few other things out.

    Simply put, PR residents ARE taxed at similar levels as would be someone in a State proper. It is just that these are in the form of local and Commonwealth taxes. Too, from a strategic point of view for U.S. geopolitical reasons, the U.S. having its Protectorates are an incredible, incredible baragain at almost whatever price.

    For example, when the U.S. "acquired" PR it was well on its way to becoming a strong and, as things looked, at succesful socialist (somewhat) State.

    While we could debate the relative pros and cons of that, the fact is is that the U.S. did not see that as in its hemispheric interests and so did what it took to give PR its present status, and to pay for it.

    For various other geopolitical reasons, the U.S. similarly pays for ALL of the other U.S. Protectorates dispersed about.

    For example, Guam, American Somaoa, FSM, the Northern Marianas Islands, etc.--ALL are located in extremely stratgic places that give the U.S. an incredible geo-political and military (if push comes to shove and for both intimidation and deterence purposes) advantage globally for its perceived interests. Key, those interests are for, or supposedly for, the interests of U.S. mainlanders. In a very real sense, therefore, the funds U.S mainlanders pay to upkeep Protectorates is just a "hidden" military tax.

    As for some disadvantages for U.S Protectorates, they are legion. While the "deals" U.S. officials brokered with typically the elites of the countires DID give advantages of things like U.S citizenship, and the right to unhindered migration to the mainland for residency, work , and education purposes, the cultural conflicts have produced incredible social problems that are in measure that exceed even many U.S. inner cities, but are unique.

    For example, almost a whole generation of Chamorrans, Marshallese, and other indigenous peoples of U.S Protectorates are esentially "caught" in liminality between their traditional culture and U.S. culture. On the one hand, their traditional elders and the communalistic good values they have hold sway, while on the other are the demands that attachment to the U.S has produced which have produced conflicting values of individualism and competition with one another. To illustrate the same, check on the 'Ice" or methaphetimine usage rates among Saipan youth sometimes with a google search, which will only tell part of the story. Also to illustrate the same, check sometime the term "crabs in a basket [syndrome]" associated with PR to see how many PR citizens are similarly "caught." And let us not fail to mention how much nepotism rules among most of the elites of the varied Protectorates as they divy up those block grant Federal funds for familial advantage.

    And whereas, say for one instance, an indigenous Carolinian on Tinian could at one time "make a living" self-sufficiently and almost exclusively on natural resources native to their island, this is no longer so.

    And let us not even talk about Bikini Island and most of the other atols of the Marshall Islands who experienced U.S. nuclear testing about 300 times in proportion to that dropped on Japan, and the cancer still rampant among Marshallese because of it.

    So being late as it is, I say all this to say that the issues surrounding U.S. Protectorates do not at all lend themselves to quick analyses. While most inhabitiants of Protectorates HAVE experienced benefits, most have paid for it very dearly, and still do to this day.

    Best,

    Anthro

    [ December 17, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Anthro ]
     
  20. Anthro

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    BTW, "liminality" is not a dictionary word but an anthropological term, and for those unfamiliar with it here is a brief discription of it in its classical sence, though its meaning has been expanded Turner and I use it in its expanded meaning.

    http://www.mythsinger.com/Liminality.html
     

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